is the bais yaakov system failing us???

Fox ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 8:50 am

First of all, kudos to the OP for raising this topic. The kind of concern and critical thinking behind such a question is evidence that you are a dedicated, caring, and professional teacher. Your students, I venture to say, are very lucky to have you!

Although I only taught limudei chol in a BY school for a year, I taught post-seminary girls who attended BY schools, and I've sent my DDs through BY schools.

My first observation is that even within the general framework of BY, individual schools vary a lot! I've seen some schools that would be outstanding schools by any measurement, and I've seen others that are truly a chillul Hashem. Like any other educational system, a lot depends on the leadership: the principal; the board of directors; the parents or rabbonim who have influence, etc.

My second observation is that, like any "system," BY works for the people for whom it works. If your DD generally enjoys and responds well to the format of classroom learning and fits in well socially, then she'll probably love BY and defend it down to the color of the linoleum.

If, however, your DD doesn't "fit" in some way -- it might be socially, academically, personality-wise, or even physically -- the overwhelming goal of the BY system will be to change your DD so that she does "fit." Now, this isn't always a bad thing. In fact, sometimes it's a good thing. Part of any school experience is learning to make friends, work with others, and learn to function as part of a group -- rather than remaining Mommy's precious little snowflake forever.

But if, after their best efforts, your DD still doesn't "fit" in some way they see as crucial? Well, what's wrong with her?!

In many ways, BY is very similar in methodology to the Litvish yeshivas of Europe: if you can't hack it, well, thanks for trying. On one hand, this system produced incredible gedolim. On the other hand, it produced people who were marginalized to the point that they became easy targets for assimilation.

Ultimately, it comes down to what kind of place klal Yisroel needs BY to be. In a perfect world, I wish BY schools could open their arms a little wider without feeling that they are compromising their ideals. I'm not talking about issues such as tznius, observance of halacha, or even hashkafa -- just the acceptance that children are not like bananas; they don't all "ripen" at the same time and in the same color.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 8:53 am

amother wrote:

sarahd wrote:

amother wrote:

I wonder if nowadays more girls are being turned off of yddeshkeit (proportionally)than those we saved 80 years ago.

Very unlikely.

I dont know about the actual statistics, but I was one of those turned off due to my school experience. my teachers would come in, teach, and leave. if you were not one of "them" they didnt have the time of day for you. I didnt learn anything about the beauty of anything- it was "this is what it is and you dont ask questions. if you DO, you dont belong in BY."

I struggled to get over a 65 in most of my limudei kodesh classes, and I only remember 2 teachers (out of 14 subjects!!) trying to work with me. none of the others even gave me the time of day. all they would tell my parents was "shes really smart, shes just not reaching her potential." by the way, I have a sister who b"h did really well in school, and had 95% of the same teachers, so I got the feeling (true or not) that they thought I would be the same.

can one of the teachers here please tell me where all that memorization has gotten me in life? where have all those chumash and navi classes gotten me? yes, its good to know, but how practical is it? from what I understand, my hs now has a home ec. class (once a week). now, thats great, dont get me wrong, im not knocking it, but why only once a week? teach the girls how to cook basics, how to sew, about getting along with someone, about shalom bayis, about being a good wife and mom....and shouldnt it be just as important as memorizing all of those things and learning all of those things?

sorry for the long post, I guess I still have a lot against the system. im sending my daughter (almost 3) to a new, small school, and im hoping this school will lilve up to its ideal, which is to be everything I didnt get....

I am the amother against changing the system. Why dint though want to be able to think for yourself? The memorization is part of the grounding. No one specifically taught me how to get along with others. It is a skill set th pick up. Your version would have women as two dimensional characters who only play nice and keep house.

Don't you want to have a brain that thinks and can participate in the beauty of the Torah? My son also does not like the rote learning. I explained to him, it is like reading. You can't progress without learning letters and sounds. He understood the analogy.

Maybe you think the Satmar system is better. There are plenty of really capable woman who after handicapped because of the lack of opportunity you so disparage.

perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. I in no way think that women should not be able to think for themselves. perhaps you can explain to me how memorization is part of the grounding, because I dont get it. how to get along with someone IS a skill that is learning, but how to cope with a husband can ALSO be taught. things like how to minimize arguments, how to not lose yourself in marriage....very important, in my opinion, and from the wayit sounds on these boards, not necessarily things addressed in kala classes, which means they are not being addressed at all.

my version places just as much importance on accademics as is does on everything else. I see no reason why a girl has 5-10 chumas and navi classes a week, and has halacha once or twice. I dont have anything against learning, except when it is at the expense of the girls. I think learning is great, but learning is not just about books and text.

Ritty

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:03 am

I am one of those that attended a school that was high in academic learning in Yiddish studies and I strongly condemn it.
I personally do not understand why in the world girls have to sit hunched over a bunch of different names and places that are so not important to daily life. For goodness sake, these are girls!!! I am so ignorant in Halacha, very little emphasis was made on it, but I do recall memorizing the exact measurements of the Aron!!! Who in the world needs that??? Is there a time in life that it comes into use??
Chumash was the first period every day. Why? Why dont girls learn more mussar, halacha and guidance for life????? Where and what are the priorities set to?
Comes Shabbos and Yom Tov- I'm the one manning the kitchen and I dont know if I'm doing it correctly. My husband bh has a 'degree' in basar v'chalav so I end up asking him all the kashrus questions- which his sisters, if I may add- went to Satmar school, know the ins and outs a million times better than me.
Are the klallim from dikduk really that important for the making of a good Yiddishe home????
Does the teitch of Navi really assist me in being mechanech my kids????
Do the measurements of the Mizbayach give me bitachon and emunah to go through everyday life????
Will the fact that I know loshon kodesh better than my friends that went to satmar school help and teach me how to be sweet and loving to my husband????

Shouldn't every high school have a shiur on Rabbi Avigdor Miller's teachings at least 2-3 times a week? I think that the girls aren't taught the excitement of Yom Tov, the joy for Shabbos- the love for Hashem-the miracles that happen every day...and that's why there are so many girls straying. Happiness and self esteem DOES NOT come from the gratitude felt from memorizing names and places- it comes from recognizing and realizing the goodness of Hashem, the miracles that happen each day, the working on oneself and eventually, when married, the halachos come to terrific, everyday use.

So to answer the OP's question: my answer is a resounding 'YES'.

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 9:06 am

OP here again. Fox, I belive part of what you said is exactly my point, we can justify the litvishe straightjacket yeshivos in Europen because look at the gedolim they produced. BUT BYs SHOULD BE BUILDING IMAHOS B'YISROEL - NOT GEDOLIM!! Aren't we missing something here? Again, I loved HS and all the academics, but looking at my students, I'm the minority.

Also, at a recent PTA meating with a former classmnate, for her daughter, she pionted out that she was able to coast through school. Nowadays, however, there is such a stress on academics. Her daughter feels that if she doesn't kill herself to get good marks, she'll lose her social standing.

She's probably right. If you look at the 5 or 6 most popular girls in each class, they are almost never the weaker students (albeit, so many of the weak students are such lovely girls, many with potential leadership personalities.

Let me ask you this: how many of you had class presidents, play heads, convention heads, etc. Who didn't get good marks as well?

TranquilityAndPeace ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:08 am

amother wrote:

Again, I ask the question,

How many of us know of GO presidents, play heads, or any other leadership role that was given to a girl who didn't succeed in limudei kodesh???

Does the silence speak for itself? What have we created here?

Many of the concert heads in my BY school were girls who did not do well academically.

There should be MORE extracurricular activities than just 6 or 8 weeks of concert/play preparations.

IMHO, there should be more halachah, more home economics, more classes about making choices and dealing with the reality that life gives you. Some of these lessons can be interspersed within Chumash and Navi.

Look how Rebbitzen Heller teaches Divrei Hayamim on naaleh.com. She teaches the difficult Aramaic words and concepts and then brings those concepts down to our life and shows us precisely how those ideas written thousands of years ago apply to us every single day right now. THAT'S WHAT'S MISSING FROM MANY CHUMASH AND NAVI CLASSES!

Isramom8 ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:16 am

OP wrote: I understand that the bais yaakov system in europe was started primarily to prevent girls from pursuing other intelectual pusuits and thereby going OTD.

My understanding is different. The idea was not only to counter the influence of secular education, but to do so by providing a strong Jewish education.

Being a good Jewish mother doesn't just happen. A woman should have a deep basis for all that she is doing. Not every girl will remember every passuk she memorized in school, but a lot more hashkafa will stick and make sense to an adult if it has an intellectual basis.

What use is a Ramban to a girl? Seriously? Torah is our soul. Something sticks from that Ramban, even after you think you don't recall a word.

The reason the smart girls are also the heads of everything is that they are capable and relaible all around.

The translating is pretty much a burden and a time waster - which is why I believe that limudei kodesh should be taught from the earliest years, so that kids are young enough to learn it well enough to think in it.

↑ Isramom8

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:18 am

This letter of mine that was published a few years ago in Hamodia:

Girls Learning Torah

To the Editor:

In his recent article, Rabbi O. raised the possibility that a girl’s sophisticated Torah education interferes with her undisputed, all-important role of Jewish wife and mother. My personal experience is that higher Torah learning greatly enhances a woman’s ability to encourage with enthusiasm her husband’s involvement in Torah learning, and to raise her children with a strong connection to Torah.

The following are examples of areas in which higher Torah knowledge has heightened my service of Hashem in the role of wife and mother:

1. When our children, sons as well as daughters, require help with limudei kodesh subjects, I can learn with them (up to the degree to which I have been educated). Mothers are called upon often to do this.

2. During a devar Torah at the Shabbos table, at shul, or at a simcha, I have the option of listening and understanding, and need not feel compelled to talk with other women out of sheer boredom and a feeling of not being addressed.

3. My husband knows that he can intelligently share with me details of a shiur he attended or gave, thereby being able to share this important, ongoing part of his life with his life’s partner.

4. When I daven Lechah Dodi at home with my young children, perhaps I have a small chance of transmitting nuances of yearning for geulah, because I have studied in context the verses that form the sources of this prayer. How many women (or men) know that this is what Lechah Dodi is about? For lack of study, are we foregoing as well awareness of the many messages in the Shabbos zemiros? What a shame if we are, since we spend time and energy singing them every week.

5. When pleading with Hashem for our lives, meaning, during the prayers of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, I have some idea of the crucial historical events we are remembering and bringing to Hashem’s attention, having studied many of the sources in the shemonah esrei in context. No, peeking at the English linear translation is not just as good as a crash course.

6. I can use my Torah education to teach others, in order to encourage them, too, in their role of Jewish wife and mother. Several sefarim were viewed, and a number of sources analyzed, when preparing my series of classes on the topic of wives encouraging our husbands in learning Torah.

7. My Navi teacher in seminary excused me from the final examination in Melachim, knowing full well that this meant that I wouldn’t toil over this sefer in depth. While her intentions were noble, affording me the freedom to attend to my duties as a new kallah, I have since regretted my decision to forego the study of this sefer. Similarly, my class never got to Parshas Ha’azinu; it’s so annoying to remain clueless about each of the brachos that the shevatim received. Since my marriage fourteen years ago, I have never had the time or focus to go back to these neglected areas of study. Girls would do well to take advantage of their opportunities to learn as much Torah as they can. The inspiration they gain will carry them through the rest of their lives.

Rabbi O. described a member of a school board as reacting with indifference to a demand of a higher level of Torah education for the students, with a retort of, “What difference does it make? They’re just girls!” To refer loosely to the well-known commentary, my wish is that that school board member and others who share his opinion “read” our girls not as “just girls” but rather as builders. We, the wives and mothers of Klal Yisrael, need tools with which to build. Woe is to us, the women of Klal Yisrael, if we are denied the vital detailed knowledge of our sacred Torah. How pathetic and futile to expect our women to succeed at transmitting a love for all we hold most precious if we are to be kept ignorant and distant from the source of that love.

Due to misguided movements of our time, I must stress that in no way do I intend to condone a woman’s study of Torah at the expense of her vital position as wife to her husband and mother to her children. On the contrary, my point is for her higher Jewish education to enhance her enthusiasm for her traditional role.

It is true, as Rabbi O. points out, that the situation today is different from the one Sarah Schenirer had to face. Certainly the situation today is far more serious! Girls from even the most fortified homes are at risk of filling the potential vaccum in their souls with constant trips to shopping malls, secular bestseller novels, foreign music CDs and cafe lounging. Now, more than ever, girls need the valuable nutrition of meforshim well toiled over and memorized pesukim rightfully achieved.

Elana Horwitz
Ra’anana

ora_43 ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:34 am

Why does it have to be one or the other, either learning practical subjects on a not-too-intense level or challenging academic learning?

Where I'm from, in the secular public system, there was a regular high school and a vocational school. And the regular school had an honors track, a regular track, and ESL and special needs classes.

Why can't each system have something like that? Honors, special needs, regular, and vocational, and let teens decide for themselves if they want to spend more time learning Rashi or more time learning baking or sheitel-styling or whatever.

It seems like the answer is - because schools are already split by hashkafa, and there's no room to split them by both hashkafa and style of learning. Is that right?

I do think that every student will probably have to sit through something they're not interested in and will never use. I also think that's a good thing for multiple reasons.

Barbara

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:48 am

freidasima wrote:

And who uses geometry and trigonometry? And who remembers the names of things in biology, and how many get nothing but headaches out of high school French?

So why are we saying that about rambam and rashi?

General and Jewish knowledge, exercising ones brain, All good things. Dining, very important, not everyone's dh is around all day to ask. Yes I could help my kids with homework, and I probably forgot more than I remember but I don't think there were too many kodosh things which were superfluous. I didn't go to by but have lots of friends who did and enjoyed the education which was very similar to mine except we had tv and they didn't and we wore shorter sleeves and skirts.

FS, some kids do.

IMNSHO, high school should present OPTIONS. If you don't teach kids geometry, you've closed the doors on them being engineers. If you don't teach them biology, you've closed the doors on them being marine biologists or medical professionals.

In the same ways, maybe its not closing the doors, but you're certainly making lifelong learning more difficult if you don't teach these things to girls (and boys, of course) in high school. We've given them a start, now its up to them.

I'm all in favor of making some things elective, perhaps in 11th or 12th grade. But isn't it wonderful to give everyone a chance to discover that they really ARE interested.

ally ↓

Tue, Feb 28 2012, 10:49 am

ora_43 wrote:

My highschool had electives for both jewish and secular subjects. We also had classes that were higher and lower levels.
The popular girls were most definitely not all smart.
I do not believe that a girl/woman should be defined by her ability to succeed academically. However, I also believe in education for educations sake and that a woman need not be defined by her ability to mother and keep house either. It is ok to be multi faceted. Perhaps it is this acknowledgement that is missing in the educational system (Although I don't think that is solely restricted to the orthodox Jewish world. I think the acknowledgement of/catering to peoples talents is an across the board problem. How many parents are thrilled to pieces when their child decides to go study fine arts/music in college rather than law/medicine/engineering etc...).

It is like the Einstein quote (I think I first saw this on Barbara's signature):
“Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.”