What has worked for teens that "don't believe..........

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 12:44 pm

Amen amother!

I wonder if Dr. Wikler can make such a statement b/c of the fact that a kid going off the derech often creates less than a 'warm relationship' between the parents and children. And btw - I would invite him to my home community where we have a number of families ( modern, yeshivish and Lub.) with kids off the derech and the parents STILL have a good relationship with them. I say kol hakavod to these parents and am glad they are leaving a door open for these kids (many now young adults) to return.

I would also add that many kids when going 'off' distance themselves from their parents b/c they think their parents are going to 'try to convince them to be something they don't want to be' [obviously in this case, FRUM!]. It is precisely b/c they know the effect their parents have on them and the inner desire to want to please their parents that they create a distance rather than face the conflict. Often when these kids return, they go back to having great relationships with their parents.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 1:49 pm

Why do your "brilliant" remarks have to be made anonymously while deriding me? If you believe in what you say, use your screen name.

Feel free to deny responsibility and to deride those in the field for their experience and conclusions. If it makes you feel better, hey, that's all-important these days.

↑ chavamom ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 1:54 pm

Motek - I think it is very easy to draw conclusions when you haven't been there. You present it as if there is absolute agreement, when there is not, and that is why I quoted from the other thread.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:00 pm

Motek wrote:

Is there any merit in what I wrote?

May we all judge each other favorably and merit Moshiach.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:03 pm

Motek wrote:

If bad parenting brings about bad children, why would only one of a large family go astray?

This happens many times.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:24 pm

"I have spoken to people with issues with children that have told me that until they had serious issues with their own children, they used to think that if someone has disastrous results with a child, it must be at least partly due to that person. Then, years later, they had a similar problem themselves, after trying their best, and regretted judging others unfavorably. "

Crying

How sad. People only point a finger of blame, until they are in the same category as those being blamed. Then they quickly change their tune. Let's all take heed and not blame others- for down the line we might be in the same predicament, Ch"V.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:31 pm

chavamom wrote:

Motek - I think it is very easy to draw conclusions when you haven't been there.

Who are you referring to? Dr. Wikler? Rabbi Weiss? Rabbi Shteinman? (latter two quoted in other thread) me?

Who says it's "easy" to draw conclusions?

Do you only take medical advice from someone who suffered from that particular ailment? Must an oncology doctor have experienced cancer?

Quote:

You present it as if there is absolute agreement, when there is not, and that is why I quoted from the other thread.

Again, if it makes people happy to point the finger elsewhere, especially at an "act of G-d," they may.

amother wrote:

If bad parenting brings about bad children, why would only one of a large family go astray?

one possibility is because that child's needs weren't met

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 2:40 pm

Motek wrote:

chavamom wrote:

Motek - I think it is very easy to draw conclusions when you haven't been there.

Quote:

You present it as if there is absolute agreement, when there is not, and that is why I quoted from the other thread.

Again, if it makes people happy to point the finger elsewhere, especially at an "act of G-d," they may.

amother wrote:

If bad parenting brings about bad children, why would only one of a large family go astray?

one possibility is because that child's needs weren't met

I'd love to meet your family. Have all your siblings turned out right? Have all your children turned right? Have all your sibling's children turned out well? Have all Gedolim's children turned out well?

AND Surprised

if anyone G-d forbid made a childrearing mistake, who does it help to beat those on the head over it?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 3:29 pm

Motek wrote:

What I realize is that it's not the experts' opinion that is the point here but the metzius. If you have a different understanding of what the metzius is, fine.

Books touting people's opinions, no matter how great, are at least partly due to their specific life experiences.

Where in the Torah, are parents blamed for children gone astray ?

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 3:50 pm

amother wrote:

Where in the Torah, are parents blamed for children gone astray ?

Melachim I, 1:6 Dovid did not rebuke Adoniyahu, Rashi: one who refrains from rebuking their child causes his death

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 4:02 pm

Motek wrote:

amother wrote:

Where in the Torah, are parents blamed for children gone astray ?

Melachim I, 1:6 Dovid did not rebuke Adoniyahu, Rashi: one who refrains from rebuking their child causes his death

On the above quote, we both agree!

What is considered the proper manner of rebuke is a matter of discussion. Ask any ten Gedolim, psychologists, authors, and you will have ten different approaches.

We all have to try our best and hope for the best and not point blame. Who benefits from the blame game? The only thing you accomplish is unneccessarily make others feel down for having tried their best and failed. Just as in any of life's ventures, it's not only Mazel- Hashem's will, it's effort that counts, but some are luckier than others. Success is not always parallel to effort.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 5:02 pm

Why are all these many comments posted anonymously?

As someone I just discussed this with pointed out - the issue is not who to blame but who needs to take responsibility, I.e. parents. It's the shifting of responsibility, aka "passing the buck" that serves no purpose and fails our children.

Do you have a source that says the mitzva of chinuch requires luck for success?

Is l'fum tzaara agra not applicable to chinuch? Got a source for that?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 5:08 pm

Motek wrote:

No one would debate l'fum tzaara agra. But neither would they debate that Hashem's decree supersedes all.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 5:18 pm

Motek wrote:

How would you explain whores and criminals having great kids and "tzadikim" and "Tzadekeses" having troubled kids? There's alot we don't understand and shouldn't attempt to understand. The smartest among us earthlings readily admit to how little we understand and the abundance of humanly unanswerable questions.

↑ Motek ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 6:08 pm

amother wrote:

No one would debate l'fum tzaara agra. But neither would they debate that Hashem's decree supersedes all.

Hashem's decree? Oh, so bechira is out of the picture? Confused

amother wrote:

As you say, why should I attempt to explain that? What's the point. We've gotta do what we gotta do.

Pity you won't be "woman" enough to use your screen name. Not very pleasant this way. Not very mentshlich.

Where are all the many women who protested unnecessary anonymous posts, hmmmm?

ep ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 6:55 pm

There was a girl in my class in HS that asked a ton of these kinds of questions. How do we know ... Why can't we do ... It doesn't make sense that ... It was really unheard of to ask these questions in our school, but that did not stop her. The teachers answered all her questions, and she absorbed every word. She ended up going to BJJ. If your daughter is asking questions, make sure she gets very good answers.
I also really recmmend davening as hard as you can. Otzar Hanachas is great. It is a collection of tefilos for parents to say for their children.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Oct 19 2006, 6:59 pm

btw, children is a mazel zach and there is a source for it although I have to locate it via dh or dad. each time I compliment my father on his childrens accomplishments as he has amazing sons ie my siblings he attributes it all to mazel and says certainly one must put their hishtadlus in but at the end of the day its mazel.