Giving Mussar | Imamother

Tefila ↓

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 8:06 pm

Well what do u think??

Chani

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 8:18 pm

Very few people know how to take mussar and even fewer know how to give it. And if you feel absolutely certain that you know how to give it, that's probably a pretty good indication that you really don't.

jewgal84

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 8:19 pm

I thought Lubavitch doesn't believe in it.

Ozmom ↓

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 9:02 pm

Quote:

I thought Lubavitch doesn't believe in it.

I don't know that lubavitch don't believe in it as it says "Hoichiach Toichiach"
but what lubavitch does believe in is doing things in a way that will be 'miskabel' (accepted by the recipient)
there is acceptable mussar and there is mussary mussar.

however even in reference to hoichiach toichiach, there are rules to follow.

My personal rule is, if I know its not going to get me anywhere then I'll keep my mouth shut and try and lead by example.
Sometimes the people who mussar are the ones that have the problem they are mussaring about.

some examples of what I mean:

Tznius:
There are people that lecture publicly about tznius, but then themselves succumb when the pressure or temptation get too strong. There are those that pick certain elements of tznius to mussar about but neglect others more crucial. People also tend to forget that our middos also falls under the realm of tznius.

Loshon Hora:
I have a friend who I find it impossible to talk loshon hora with. She never says a word about not speaking loshon hora, she doesn't mussar at all, she doesn't say "sha sha loshon hora" it just doesn't work with her. And you don't even realise it or feel belittled by it, it simply doesn't work to talk loshon hora with her.

On the flip side, I'm wary of people that harp on about not speaking loshon hora as from my experience time and time again, they are the ones to be wary of. They are the ones that in the same conversation where they told you not to speak loshon hora, will do so themselves.

But there are times where mussar needs to be given, so what is one to do?
I think people have to make an honest evaluation of the reason they are giving the mussar. Where is the desire to speak their mind coming from?
from a true ahavas yisroel for the recipient?
or from their own gaiva (ego)?
I think that makes a tremendous difference to the way the message will come across.
Do you aim to belittle the recipient? or make them aware?

I think many people when they set out to correct a wrong need to first set out what their goals are. If your coming at it from anger and from a desire to make the person feel low, then I reckon you ought to keep a lid on it. and if it really does stem from ahavas yisroel, then, unless I'm being too optimistic, I figure the sentiments will filter through.

red sea

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 9:11 pm

I think you are also not supposed or allowed to give mussar in s/t that you have room to improve in.
And ur only supposed/allowed to give it if you have the persons best interest at HEART and no other motive
It supposed to be given gently.
I have no idea where I heard this stuff, did a/o else ever hear it?

↑ Ozmom ↓

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 9:13 pm

no I haven't heard it.
Whats wrong with making it sound like, "WE need to work on this"
many times I've spoken about something that needed fixing but I count myself in the need to fix.

amother

Tue, Sep 12 2006, 9:21 pm

One has to be very careful giving mussar that you actualy know what is happening. I was recently in a situation where I was told not to be doing s/t by a total stranger. When I told her what was actually happening she was so embarrased.

busymom ↓

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:13 am

amother, so true! don't mussar unless ur SURE you know what's going on.

at one point, my mother had several miscarriages and was struggling to have another child. when a fundraising event was planned for the school, one of the organizers could not understand why my mother - with her "small" family (five then) - could not get more involved. about two days after my mother had undergone surgery, she called her at home and lectured her about not helping out... how women try to get out of helping, etc. etc. my mother was already feeling really down before this call and this really shattered her. she was so distraught, she could not even reply. she sobbed after the woman hung up and still gets emotional when she repeats the story.
(postscript: before rosh hashana, when she was already feeling more in control of her emotions, my mother called the woman and told her what had been going on in her life then. she explained to her that though it may be frustrating when trying to find volunteers for such an event, one can never jump to point fingers at others...)

↑ busymom

Wed, Sep 13 2006, 10:22 am

[quote="Ozmom"]

Quote:

But there are times where mussar needs to be given, so what is one to do?
I think people have to make an honest evaluation of the reason they are giving the mussar. Where is the desire to speak their mind coming from?
from a true ahavas yisroel for the recipient?
or from their own gaiva (ego)?
I think that makes a tremendous difference to the way the message will come across.
Do you aim to belittle the recipient? or make them aware?

great points! couldn not have put it better!
in general, I think a good rule of thumb is to ONLY mussar someone you are very close to - after making sure the above points apply. first of all, then you probably do know what's going on and won't make the type of mistakes mentioned above. secondly, if you truly care for the person, it will come across in ur mussar and you'll have a much better chance of doing it right. (nonetheless, I think that if ppl go through ozmom's checklist, and are REALLYy honest with themselves, they'll find that they can mussar only very rarely. Wink

)

↑ Ozmom ↓

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 6:32 pm

Quote:

I think a good rule of thumb is to ONLY mussar someone you are very close to - after making sure the above points apply.

busymom, I can only understand this point in terms of, if I see a total stranger in the street, (like I did yesterday) wearing a sheitle and obviously frum, but her skirt was above her knees and neck line plunging, I will not go up to her and say something, being as she is a total stranger and I know nothing about her.
*I will comment further on this below

However when there is a global problem, it can't be simply ignored because we don't know all the individuals involved, something certainly must be done, but it must be done with tact and it must be done in a way that it is "miskabel".
I don't want anyone taking from what I wrote that we should ignore global problems.

*in reference to total strangers, I know a few woman who in becoming frum, put on a sheitle while still wearing plunging neck lines and short skirts.
If you didn't know their background, you would wonder.

↑ Tefila

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 9:53 pm

Ozmom u r pretty good Smile

you have taken almost all that I have wanted to say and written it here. Wink

↑ Ozmom

Thu, Sep 14 2006, 11:11 pm

I just thought of another criteria.
I think, people who give mussar must be able to recieve it too. If a person can't accept mussar, then how do they expect others to accept from them.
and if a person can accept mussar, then they will also have a hightened sensitivity in how to give it.

just my 2 cents worth

chocolate moose

Fri, Sep 15 2006, 1:58 pm

I think we call it chizuk, not mussar.