Spoon it's not that it is BENEATH anyone.
It's priorities.
A Man's priority in his non working time is to learn torah. If his wife's priority was the same babies would have been created by the ribono shel olam being able to diaper themselves!
But they weren't so someone has to do it.
If you are cooking and your husband is learning are you going to say "moishe, the baby is crying go see if he needs a diaper change!!!"???? Or will you turn the fire down and have a look what is going on?
If both parties are sitting together it's a tossup, if your husband is sitting watching TV and you are busy working at something, better he should go. If you are both working at vochadig things...well it's also natural inclination. Some men are really squeamish about things, we women, giving birth, getting periods etc. aren't simply because we spend our lives from puberty dealing with bodily fluids and getting rid of them. But it's not a question of beneath.
Yes great choshuver rabbonim also change diapers if necessary. But the emphasis is on necessary. If it is for the sake of "equality"....oy vey is mir. G-d help us.
I was the one who wrote that someone told us that it was beneath him to change a diaper. Yes, he said that it was beneath him to change it. Nothing about priorities, just that it was beneath him. The man who I am talking about learns in kollel all day and when he comes home he is home, to help his wife, but does not do diapers. Something is off there with his derech eretz and what he thinks of himself.
I would just like to point out that my father told my husband that some of the best bonding times that he had with us kids were when he was changing our diapers.
How can one bond best changing diapers unless that is the ONLY quality time one spends with children? Do you bond best with your children in the bathroom wiping their behinds? Because that's basically what changing a diaper is all about.
Dressing a child, maybe. But changing a diaper? Yuk.
How can one bond best changing diapers unless that is the ONLY quality time one spends with children? Do you bond best with your children in the bathroom wiping their behinds? Because that's basically what changing a diaper is all about.
Dressing a child, maybe. But changing a diaper? Yuk.
Wow, talk about judgmental, huh? I am just relaying what my father said. And no, that was not at all the only time my father spent with us. He was one of those completely hands on fathers, everything.
In terms of how you can bond with a baby changing their diaper, you can do funny faces, you can tickle, make nice to their body, sing songs just as some examples.
Saw - give me the halochic source that this Rov you mention uses to say why a woman can't give her husband a present under the chuppah, as long as it is AFTER his giving her the ring before 2 kosher eidim? (and there are those, daa's miut who say after the reading of the kesuba)???
After all, in sefaradi and many Ashkenazi EY chasunahs the chossen gets a tallis under the chuppah as a PRESENT from his wife and/or her family which he puts on, makes a brocho over, and it is placed over both members of the couple and this in the MIDDLE of the wedding ceremony. A tallis is worth as much if not more than a men's wedding ring, it is a gift, it interrupts the continuity of the ceremony and it is NOT a halochic integral part of the ceremony but has become a custom, nothing more.
The only thing he can claim is "ma yomru" that is is a "non jewish custom" for a wife to give a husband a wedding ring, but then it is even more of a non jewish custom for a Jewish man to wear a wedding ring and in those circles where it is not considered a non jewish custom, meaning that enough Jewish frum men wear wedding rings such as among the MO, it is also not a non jewish custom to give it under the chuppah. As long as it doesn't interfere in the halochic part of the kinyan which it doesn't if you make a declarative statement about it being a present and NOT being part of the eirusin/kiddushin/nisuin cycle.
He also can't claim that it's a hafsaka to the ceremony as it happens after the halochic part of it.
This happens to be an inyan that I have learned in depth with rabbonim of all sectors where there is even a chance that a man would wear a wedding ring. Obviously in virtually all charedi sectors that's not an issue. But those are the only considerations in the MO world. Hafsoko of the halochic part of the ceremony; being "chukas hagoyim". If done correctly, neither are an issue as there is absolutely no "kinyan" that a woman can do to a man or even something remotely resembling one.
What therefore is the halochic basis for what this Rov said about it not being allowed?
I don't have a source and I'm not bothering him for one. But its definitely a shitta. A few things:
1) The Rabbi mentioned something to the effect of it being a ring. Since a ring is what a man uses to "acquire" his bride, giving him a ring under the chupah is problematic
2) It has nothing to do with chukas hagoyim. You are totally stretching and overreaching. Like I said, in my circles its very common for men to wear rings and for men to not get their rings under the chupah. Regardless if FS decides it doesn't make sense and it must not be.
3) I really WANTED to give my husband his ring under the chupah. But our Rabbi said halachically its problematic. So we didn't do it. At our civil ceremony, we had a double ring ceremony LOL.
Saw I still want to know his source for not allowing a ring because I was taught by many, many rabbonim that there is absolutely no problem if it is done correctly. There are also many written psikos on this matter if you want to check explaining the whole inyan and how to do it correctly so that it is no problem at all.
Therefore it seems very strange to me that you say that there is a rov, or rabbonim who see this as a problem and I want to know what their halochic reasoning was.
Shabbat I wasn't being judgemental but maybe we have different shitos about what diapering is all about. With us it is not a time to play until the baby actually has the diaper changed and on again, the "play" can only be once anything dirty is taken away and hands are washed (both baby and mommy) because you don't play or touch other parts of the body unnecessarily until you have washed your hands after changing a dirty diaper. We have always been very makpid about this inyan.
We do, however, play a lot with our babies dressing them once the diaper is on and hands are washed. If you mean THAT part of it, then I understand. Otherwise the idea is that your hands have to be washed before you touch anything on the baby unneceesarily.
Now I read here that there are mothers who use gloves to change their babies and after putting the diaper into the pail they take off the gloves and throw them in the pail so that their hands are now clean. That would be the same thing as washing I suppose, although if you are talking about an older child, one who can talk already, then you can't use that as an opportunity to teach them to wash hands and say "asher yotzar" which we did from the time a child was talking pretty clearly, let's say 20-22 months or so when they could already learn to say the first words of it after a diaper change, of course without shem umalchus until they are really dry and clean.
What does not changing diapers have anything to do with being in kollel? I know men who are disgusted by it and don't do it -- in kollel or not. For that matter, I've heard of WOMEN who also don't change diapers. There can be a gazillion reasons not to -- from being selfish to having sensory issues -- but kollel has nothing to do with it.
And for that matter, I know wives who don't mind changing diapers and are happy to relieve their husbands from that duty, just like there are husbands who don't mind taking out the slimy, smelly trash or filling up their wives' cars with stinky gasoline in order to do something for their spouse.
We don't have to blame everything on kollel.
FWIW, I was brought up that we serve my father first. It's engraved in stone, almost. Yes, he is closest to the kitchen, so it helps, but if his mother is there, we serve my father who then has the chance to be mechabed eim by serving his mother before taking himself.
Spoon it's not that it is BENEATH anyone.
It's priorities.
A Man's priority in his non working time is to learn torah. If his wife's priority was the same babies would have been created by the ribono shel olam being able to diaper themselves!
But they weren't so someone has to do it.
If you are cooking and your husband is learning are you going to say "moishe, the baby is crying go see if he needs a diaper change!!!"???? Or will you turn the fire down and have a look what is going on?
If both parties are sitting together it's a tossup, if your husband is sitting watching TV and you are busy working at something, better he should go. If you are both working at vochadig things...well it's also natural inclination. Some men are really squeamish about things, we women, giving birth, getting periods etc. aren't simply because we spend our lives from puberty dealing with bodily fluids and getting rid of them. But it's not a question of beneath.
Yes great choshuver rabbonim also change diapers if necessary. But the emphasis is on necessary. If it is for the sake of "equality"....oy vey is mir. G-d help us.
Didn't you say in a previous post that the women are the delicate ones who in many circles get a ptor from the 'ughy' things like throwing out the garbage? This seems to contradict.
If you are serving, non Jews, non religious Jews and those very modern Orthodox Jews who don't know from what I will describe in a second and would be offended by it, you serve "Ladies first".
Yuck, those modernim! You conveniently forget non MO posters who don't relate, FS.
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[first dh, who always tells me "freidasima take what you like first" to which I answer "Yehuda you first" and as he knows exactly what I like he puts it on my plate while he winks to the kids
Yeah well, it sounds to me like a show and not a family dinner.
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Guests - non Jews, frei and very modern, ladies first. Frum and charedi - men first.
You can find very modern men who are into "being the male" and will be offended.
You can find many non MO men who are into ladies first as politeness.
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Who goes first. A Talmid chochom or a woman? In the western world no matter who the man is and no matter who the lady is, it's chivalry, "ladies first." but in the religious value scale a man
Yeah then we have many talmide chochomim who are ignorant of Torah values...
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Some men are really squeamish about things, we women, giving birth, getting periods etc.
We aren't born like this, we learn to get used to it. He's squeamish? I'll make it pass quickly... it's his baby, no?
No it doesn't contradict simply because the ughy things I was talking about have nothing to do with human bodily fluids which are usually a woman's domain for the reasons I mentioned.
Ughy things include getting rid of dead cockaroaches, taking mice out of their traps and letting them go elsewhere or (ugn!) drowning them, taking out household garbage and as mentioned, filling up the car with gas, checking oil and water, filling the tires with air (and getting your hands smeared with tar and filth in the process). It also includes tarring a roof when necessary, often painting or removing things with hand staining solvents etc. What does any of that have to do with bodily fluids?
Hashem Yaazor I like what you wrote about serving your father so that he could serve his mother first. Very nice. But come to think of it, when my grandmother was alive my father would be served first and then he would want to serve my grandmother (my mother's mother) but she always refused
In my mind the MO who can't relate, Ruchel are the very modern ones, not the ones used to traditional values.
And some men NEVER get over the squemishness no matter what. Women who have periods every month may be squeamish as well but if they aren't ill with sensory issues then it's their goral to take care of babies, to nurse and to give birth. Men can't nurse, men don't have periods and men don't give birth no matter how you turn it.
Mo men who put "ladies first" before giving kovod to torah...well then they are for me the very very modern kind.
I asked my husband about the serving and the platters and putting on the table and just everyone taking what was in front of them and his comment to me now was "it has nothing to do with yiddishkeit only, it has to do with not having been raised in a barn...plain good manners not to just take what is in front of you but to first send the platter to the head of the table (meaning to the HOH) and it's not just in Jewish households either!"
In my mind the MO who can't relate, Ruchel are the very modern ones, not the ones used to traditional values.
In my mind those who do like this don't have mentshlishkeit.
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And some men NEVER get over the squemishness no matter what. Women who have periods every month may be squeamish as well but if they aren't ill with sensory issues then it's their goral to take care of babies, to nurse and to give birth.
Ill? come on. Disgust never killed anyone.
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Mo men who put "ladies first" before giving kovod to torah...well then they are for me the very very modern kind.
Even the charedim? Even the rabbanim? Okay. The lashon is not on me!
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I asked my husband about the serving and the platters and putting on the table and just everyone taking what was in front of them and his comment to me now was "it has nothing to do with yiddishkeit only, it has to do with not having been raised in a barn...plain good manners not to just take what is in front of you but to first send the platter to the head of the table (meaning to the HOH) and it's not just in Jewish households either!"
And many disagree, including from what I have seen by rabbanim.
In my mind the MO who can't relate, Ruchel are the very modern ones, not the ones used to traditional values.
And some men NEVER get over the squemishness no matter what. Women who have periods every month may be squeamish as well but if they aren't ill with sensory issues then it's their goral to take care of babies, to nurse and to give birth. Men can't nurse, men don't have periods and men don't give birth no matter how you turn it.
Mo men who put "ladies first" before giving kovod to torah...well then they are for me the very very modern kind.
I asked my husband about the serving and the platters and putting on the table and just everyone taking what was in front of them and his comment to me now was "it has nothing to do with yiddishkeit only, it has to do with not having been raised in a barn...plain good manners not to just take what is in front of you but to first send the platter to the head of the table (meaning to the HOH) and it's not just in Jewish households either!"
So speaks my husband.
No, sorry, I"ve been to a lot of homes, some of them quite genteel, and no, the platter is not sent to the HOH first. If it's set in the middle of the table, manners are to wait till all are seated. If guests are present, manners are to tell them to feel free to help themselves, or to offer to put some on their plate. Manners are to ask who would like some of this stew. But no, sorry, you and your husband must have a narrow circle of friends if you think not sending food straight to the HOH equates being raised in a barn.
Yes Table in my circles if you put all the platters down on the table and everyone just "digs in" to what is in front of them without sending them first to the head of the table then yes we do consider that "being raised in a barn".
Just not done in my circles and not only in my home. I've never seen that happen except among non jews or frei yidden except if you are talking about a simcha with a table with 100 people and that when you arrive the platters are all set out. And even then, each family that I know among frum people if they are sitting families passes the platter to the father first. That's just the way it's done in many traditional families.
BTW, I am not trying to malign the "non jews" by saying that because with traditional old fashioned Xtian families, Amish, etc. the food is also served to the father first.
Yes Table in my circles if you put all the platters down on the table and everyone just "digs in" to what is in front of them without sending them first to the head of the table then yes we do consider that "being raised in a barn".
Just not done in my circles and not only in my home. I've never seen that happen except among non jews or frei yidden except if you are talking about a simcha with a table with 100 people and that when you arrive the platters are all set out. And even then, each family that I know among frum people if they are sitting families passes the platter to the father first. That's just the way it's done in many traditional families.
BTW, I am not trying to malign the "non jews" by saying that because with traditional old fashioned Xtian families, Amish, etc. the food is also served to the father first.
Wow. You certainly lump a lot of people in the category of barn animals then.
Can we name this thread, "The world according to Freidasima"?
Ditto...
I think it's a loss of time. FS is very interesting to read BUT will never accept there are other halachic ways, other customs, and even charedim doing wayyyy differently. In your circles FS, I totally believe you. But even if you didn't know there were people who have different TRADITIONAL ways and different halachot, now with the various posters disagreeing, you should see it. Maybe in your circles only ultra modern do differently. But then accept that in other circles even shtark charedim don't.
I also will add, not to malign non jews (Jews are ok to call ill bred and assimilated right?), but even in Sauda Arabia non Muslims are not forced to wear a burka. Unless this changed in the last 10 years.
Can we name this thread, "The world according to Freidasima"?
But its an almost fascinating anthropological study.
Incorporating another thread
Food must go to the man first.
If there's not enough food, we don't cut smaller portions or add food that may not be as shabbasdik, like tuna. We tell the daughters they're not allowed to eat, but they can sneak into the kitchen later on for a peanut butter sandwich. In any case, that makes them appear to be eating less, so that the neighbors won't gossip about their eating habits, claiming they're oinkers even if they wear a size 2. Sort of like the advice Mammy gave Scarlet.
And if you simply place the platters on the table, allowing people to take at their leisure, distributing food equally amongst males and females, you've been raised on a farm.
Can we name this thread, "The world according to Freidasima"?
Ditto...
I think it's a loss of time. FS is very interesting to read BUT will never accept there are other halachic ways, other customs, and even charedim doing wayyyy differently. In your circles FS, I totally believe you. But even if you didn't know there were people who have different TRADITIONAL ways and different halachot, now with the various posters disagreeing, you should see it. [b]Maybe in your circles only ultra modern do differently[/b]. But then accept that in other circles even shtark charedim don't.
I also will add, not to malign non jews (Jews are ok to call ill bred and assimilated right?), but even in Sauda Arabia non Muslims are not forced to wear a burka. Unless this changed in the last 10 years.
I'd just like to clarify that my circles are far from ultra-modern, either religiously or culturally. I would love it if they were more 'modern' (western/liberal/whatever)---but they are pretty traditional Israeli. And still the FS rules are foreign in my circles (serve all the men first/give sons food but deny daughters, etc).
Sure Table! I meant in FS's circles. Maybe really by her all committed modern and + do that. But in many other circles (mine, yours, dh's, other posters)? It is unheard of, or very rare.
I can see this high pressure being ground for eating disorders, too. It makes me very sad.
