MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
Ok, got it now. All I have seen (especially in homes outside my own) is boys being served first. Chazal specifically talk about serving food when they discuss issues of kavod, so it makes sense to apply it there. In other cases, unless there is an outright talmid chcham involved, I don't think halacha mandates boys getting first pick or a better share just by virtue of Torah learning. Otherwise, it appears as though children receive equal loving treatment from their parents. Equal doesn't mean all get exactly the same, equal means all feel as though they are receiving an equivalent amount.
OK, so many of us have NOT seen boys getting first. If you want to a household and girls got served first, would it upset you? Your dh? Your sons? If so why.
And part of the other question was whether girls ever got privileges the boys didn't have.
No, I already responded as such to tablepoetry. My family has been and will continue to be exposed to Jews (and non-Jews) of all stripes and colors. Barring extremely disturbing behaviors, I want them to be exposed to all types. They can either ask and I will respond, or they can assume others do things differently. Unless something is clearly against halacha, I or my dh would not feel the need to point out these differences.
Some people here feel so strongly that boys being served first is so very wrong that they would not eat in my home.
I gave an example of a girls' privilege already- the trip to Spain.
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
So then if your daughters learn and your sons work you would serve your daughters first?
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
So then if your daughters learn and your sons work you would serve your daughters first?
Ok, got it now. All I have seen (especially in homes outside my own) is boys being served first. Chazal specifically talk about serving food when they discuss issues of kavod, so it makes sense to apply it there. In other cases, unless there is an outright talmid chcham involved, I don't think halacha mandates boys getting first pick or a better share just by virtue of Torah learning. Otherwise, it appears as though children receive equal loving treatment from their parents. Equal doesn't mean all get exactly the same, equal means all feel as though they are receiving an equivalent amount.
OK, so many of us have NOT seen boys getting first. If you want to a household and girls got served first, would it upset you? Your dh? Your sons? If so why.
And part of the other question was whether girls ever got privileges the boys didn't have.
No, I already responded as such to tablepoetry. My family has been and will continue to be exposed to Jews (and non-Jews) of all stripes and colors. Barring extremely disturbing behaviors, I want them to be exposed to all types. They can either ask and I will respond, or they can assume others do things differently. Unless something is clearly against halacha, I or my dh would not feel the need to point out these differences.
Some people here feel so strongly that boys being served first is so very wrong that they would not eat in my home.
I gave an example of a girls' privilege already- the trip to Spain.
Almost everyone can sit down and eat together. Very few of us have Spain trips in the future. In what ways are girls privileged, globally, in your social network? Because we already have discovered that people all over do NOT serve boys first.
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
So then if your daughters learn and your sons work you would serve your daughters first?
I'll let you know when my daughters join a kollel
Well, if the daughter is in a top sem with a big kodesh level, and the son (lo alenu) is really not the type to want or to manage to learn. It happens...
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
So then if your daughters learn and your sons work you would serve your daughters first?
I'll let you know when my daughters join a kollel
They don't have to join a kollel to learn Torah.
And again, going back, if you came to my house and I served all the women first (as it happens in Rochel's family...female guest first) would your sons or husband be offended? Even if all the women came before the men?
Ok, got it now. All I have seen (especially in homes outside my own) is boys being served first. Chazal specifically talk about serving food when they discuss issues of kavod, so it makes sense to apply it there. In other cases, unless there is an outright talmid chcham involved, I don't think halacha mandates boys getting first pick or a better share just by virtue of Torah learning. Otherwise, it appears as though children receive equal loving treatment from their parents. Equal doesn't mean all get exactly the same, equal means all feel as though they are receiving an equivalent amount.
OK, so many of us have NOT seen boys getting first. If you want to a household and girls got served first, would it upset you? Your dh? Your sons? If so why.
And part of the other question was whether girls ever got privileges the boys didn't have.
No, I already responded as such to tablepoetry. My family has been and will continue to be exposed to Jews (and non-Jews) of all stripes and colors. Barring extremely disturbing behaviors, I want them to be exposed to all types. They can either ask and I will respond, or they can assume others do things differently. Unless something is clearly against halacha, I or my dh would not feel the need to point out these differences.
Some people here feel so strongly that boys being served first is so very wrong that they would not eat in my home.
I gave an example of a girls' privilege already- the trip to Spain.
Almost everyone can sit down and eat together. Very few of us have Spain trips in the future. In what ways are girls privileged, globally, in your social network? Because we already have discovered that people all over do NOT serve boys first.
I just gave an answer to being offended if you served women first. I'm not sure why you asked again.
Why does there have to be a global privilege for girls? It is up to every parent who puts boys first in any way to ensure that their daughters feel privileged in their own right. I don't think people all over the world do anything in one way only. I have seen SOME families across the globe sharing this custom, and obviously I have seen others that don't. I'm not stubborn enough to lie and say it's all I've ever seen. I thought that was obvious.
You can give exactly the same and kids don't feel equal. Kids should just receive what they need, even if it is different from their sibling (they may not understand this until they are adults or even parents, though).
When a kid asks for equal he often means he didn't get more/better
But kids deserve FAIR treatment (all this is from John Rosemond, the sequel is from me lol), and depending on your minhag/rav, fair is different, as we see on this thread.
Birth order also has a source (bechor). In fact it inspires me to ask the shaila on what to do on this, as contrary to boys vs girls, I don't know yet what we need to do on this when the time comes! My DH just told me he never heard of any bechor thing by him... I'll have to ask my grandparents! lol
Among some Sefardi families, being a bechor is quite a "thing", and the first child will often have Bechor(a) as one of his name or as only name!
Ruchel, John Rosemond means nothing to me. Torah sources do. You are welcome to follow your Torah sources, while I follow mine. Isn't that your favorite line?
Ruchel, John Rosemond means nothing to me. Torah sources do. You are welcome to follow your Torah sources, while I follow mine. Isn't that your favorite line?
Ok, must be a big time language thing, because I was ASKED to say when I'm quoting someone just on this site. Ok, next time I'll disregard it.
As for Torah sources, when mine are respected on this thread, I will stop arguing. It's that simple.
You can give exactly the same and kids don't feel equal. Kids should just receive what they need, even if it is different from their sibling (they may not understand this until they are adults or even parents, though).
When a kid asks for equal he often means he didn't get more/better
But kids deserve FAIR treatment (all this is from John Rosemond, the sequel is from me lol), and depending on your minhag/rav, fair is different, as we see on this thread.
Birth order also has a source (bechor). In fact it inspires me to ask the shaila on what to do on this, as contrary to boys vs girls, I don't know yet what we need to do on this when the time comes! My DH just told me he never heard of any bechor thing by him... I'll have to ask my grandparents! lol
Among some Sefardi families, being a bechor is quite a "thing", and the first child will often have Bechor(a) as one of his name or as only name!
I thought imamother discredited him a while ago.
My apologies if I'm thinking of someone else.
BTW, not that kids don't deserve fair treatment, but let's try a different source.
How about...Chaim Walder? Based on a Kidpseak story somewhere, about a youngest who always got served last (and he was a boy yet) because of strict sticking to age order.
Ruchel, John Rosemond means nothing to me. Torah sources do. You are welcome to follow your Torah sources, while I follow mine. Isn't that your favorite line?
Ok, must be a big time language thing, because I was ASKED to say when I'm quoting someone just on this site. Ok, next time I'll disregard it.
As for Torah sources, when mine are respected on this thread, I will stop arguing. It's that simple.
I have never stated that your Torah sources are wrong. And I appreciate you saying that the above comes from John Rosemond, because sources do matter to me. I'm just saying, that particular source is not someone I choose to follow at all.
Imamother is made of many people. Many people dislike him, many people think he has at least some good ideas (various posters from Marina to Motek, so no air heads). I don't see how a website can discredit someone, and even if it did... who cares. Catholics discredited not following Yoshke long ago, too. So?
Mabellevie actually I wasn't thinking of you when I said some refuse to see other rabbanim rule differently... as for John Rosemond, well we can learn from most people, if only just ideas. What I quoted isn't controversial and I actually don't know anyone who would really disagree! with the exception of parents who think you have to buy EVERYTHING in pair when you have two kids...
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
I agree with the others. It gets really tricky when you start serving according to subjective standards and not objective ones (like age, or who is a guest).
You must surely realize that even in the best of families not all the boys necessarily are learners. Even in the best of families there will be a teen or two who decides to rebel and not study, for example. Or chas vechallila go OTD. Is he still served before all his sisters? Even if he does not represent Kavod LaTorah (just the opposite)? Or does each boy have to pass a test of middos and learning before deciding he's worthy of this honour?
My humblest of apologies. I'm sure we're all intelligent enough to glean the good from the whatever. Though I'm mildly curious as to how he expresses himself but whatever.
Some years ago I read something from possibly Chaim Ginott on treating kids equally, all I remember really was the humorous/pathetic example of the other who had to measure the squares of chocolate she gave her kids.
So of course, it's about treating kids fairly, not equally. Some kids need CAMP (do I get any points?), others don't.
mabellevie, lets say you have a brother who bunks off learning at every opportunity, and his sister (the same age) who loves learning and is a huge baalas chesed to boot. She helps out the kollel family next door every evening (enabling mr next door to learn in kollel, becasue if his wife would not have that help he would probably have to leave kollel)
So you still serve this boy first?
This whole thing is tricky.
If I would have been treated like this at home maybe I would have gone otd.
In reality I highly doubt families are saying to thier daughters: Do not take any food until chaim has had. What probably happens is father gets first, the boys sit next to theri father so they get next.
the point is according to you, how ever wonderful a girl is, however exemplery her choices in life, she will never ever be as good as her brother, however terrible his choices in life, however uunexemplery his life, just becasue he supposedly spends time every day learning gemara.
How do you make the jump from "my brother spends his days immersed in Talmud Torah, and kavod hatorah is forthcoming" to "I will never be as good as him"? That's what I mean when I say the overall chinuch and hashkafa is missing crucial elements.
Again, this only works if you really only serve the boys who are immersed in Torah all day first. And the boys who are slack learners or rebels or lazy get served last, or at least after industrious learning sisters. Otherwise you are serving males before females on basis of anatomy and not merit.
MaBelle, I did not grow up with that either, nor have I ever seen that anywhere and believe me, I grew up in a home with kavod haTorah (all 5 married siblings are in kollel). If we were served (and not just platters in the middle of the table), it was either age order, or youngest to oldest (like if the little ones were hungry and couldn't wait) or even my mother would just go around the table. Never ever boys before girls and I don't think there was anything missing in our hashkafah. I have tremendous admiration and respect for my younger brother, for his Torah knowledge and way of applying it among other things like people skills, etc. I do think if parents do things that seem to favor one child over another, or one gender over another there can be cause for jealousy and resentment. BTW, we girls served at the Shabbos table but were never jealous of the boys because Erev and Motzei Shabbos they were the ones who had to bring out the garbage and do the more messy kind of work.
I don't mean to imply that anyone who does otherwise is missing anything in hashkafa. I never stated this must be done, or should be done. I stated that I have seen it done, in response to someone who claims this doesn't exist. I brought up hashkafa with regard to having a complete picture- in other words, don't serve boys first without surrounding that with all the hashkafa it involves. I think parents need to be clear that no gender is favored, and neither is birth order. Kavod hatorah is a separate concept. You can teach kavod hatorah without serving boys first, but don't serve boys first without an overall atmosphere and understanding of kavod Torah in the household.
I agree with the others. It gets really tricky when you start serving according to subjective standards and not objective ones (like age, or who is a guest).
You must surely realize that even in the best of families not all the boys necessarily are learners. Even in the best of families there will be a teen or two who decides to rebel and not study, for example. Or chas vechallila go OTD. Is he still served before all his sisters? Even if he does not represent Kavod LaTorah (just the opposite)? Or does each boy have to pass a test of middos and learning before deciding he's worthy of this honour?
That's why parents have to use sechel. No, a boy does not get served first just by virtue of the thing hanging down between his legs. In general terms, I will say that I like the idea of honoring Torah by serving boys who are immersed in learning and practicing Torah before others. I hope to never be faced with the challenge of an OTD child, but I would imagine the best practice in that case would be to phase out the order of serving food. No need to make a fuss about this brother getting first because he's learning and this brother not because he's mechalel Shabbat. Sechel.
mabellevie, lets say you have a brother who bunks off learning at every opportunity, and his sister (the same age) who loves learning and is a huge baalas chesed to boot. She helps out the kollel family next door every evening (enabling mr next door to learn in kollel, becasue if his wife would not have that help he would probably have to leave kollel)
So you still serve this boy first?
This whole thing is tricky.
If I would have been treated like this at home maybe I would have gone otd.
In reality I highly doubt families are saying to thier daughters: Do not take any food until chaim has had. What probably happens is father gets first, the boys sit next to theri father so they get next.
the point is according to you, how ever wonderful a girl is, however exemplery her choices in life, she will never ever be as good as her brother, however terrible his choices in life, however uunexemplery his life, just becasue he supposedly spends time every day learning gemara.
How do you make the jump from "my brother spends his days immersed in Talmud Torah, and kavod hatorah is forthcoming" to "I will never be as good as him"? That's what I mean when I say the overall chinuch and hashkafa is missing crucial elements.
Again, this only works if you really only serve the boys who are immersed in Torah all day first. And the boys who are slack learners or rebels or lazy get served last, or at least after industrious learning sisters. Otherwise you are serving males before females on basis of anatomy and not merit.
This would be fitting the system, but would drive the other boys even further...
Wow so many questions and all I did was have supper with dh.
Ok first to yirah. How is it expressed in our house? Or rather how did we (not that successfully) try to have it expressed? By the kids not being overly familiar with me when they talked. That's a problem because they tended, naturally, as much or as little as I was around, to be more likely to say things or argue points with me that they wouldn't have DARED with their father. He was the one to always say to them, if he heard them refer to me as "she" when speaking, "SHE has a name, she is your mother, always refer to her as that".
I never called my mother SHE to this day like "she said" but rather "mother said". My kids today are the same. That was drummed into them as "yirah".
Ruchel you keep bringing family examples of all over where this didn't exist. By the same account I can bring family examples from all over where it DID exist. Galicia. Bukovina. Ukraine. Germany. I have distant relatives from Switzerland who were the same. So what does it teach us? That there were families who did and those who didn't. But leaving Europe, I'm sure many of you are familiar with the sefaradi custom of kissing a father's hand. How did you think the kids did it, sitting down? Who are you kidding.
Serving men first or boys first. Definitely. I remember being taught by my mother to serve the men first unless they were frei in which case you served the women first. Lesson in table ettiquite yet in the 60s in America. I remember having big rabbonim at my parent's table for various occasions from all over the world, and many of them would - when being served first - turn to their wives to serve HER first, but they as rabbonim were given first honor.
What do you do with a five year old boy and an 18 year old girl? Of course you serve the girl first. But when it's an 18 year old boy and a 20 year old girl, it really depended on how frum they were. The frummer they were, the boy got first. Always. The more "modern" they were, then "ladies first" made inroads.
What priviledges did girls have over the boys? Boy o boy o boy you can see from the question that you people really don't know that world. The lines of demarcation were really well drawn. If you had both boys and girls then girls did the domestic, but boys did the heavy stuff. If the family had a 16 year old girl and an 18 year old boy and there was enough money for one set of new clothing of course the girl got it and the boy wore his old stuff. Girls had to be dressed well for shidduchim, girls were given privileges the boys couldn't dream of in terms of physical things. Girls didn't do heavy or dirty work if there were boys. As someone wrote, the boys did the garbage, moved furniture, did the heavy work and the heavy cleaning because it wasn't healthy for the girls to do it. And if the boys were learning then on Friday or when they got home. Because girls were treated delicately. Anything disgusting like getting rid of a dead bird or dead mouse? Boys of course did it. Girls were treated to many more presents than the boys, their physical conditions were always better as they were considered delicate.
There is a tremendous difference between - even in the domestic sphere - the public and the private. Meals are public. Therefore boys get served first because of kovod hatorah. If they are amaratzim and not learning? It then doesn't apply. Then it's "ladies first". But if they are learning? Usually they also have much longer hours than the girls and a much heavier schedule. But in the private? Like there is one bed who gets it? Not the boy that's for sure because the girls are delicate and they need a softer bed. Boys can cope with blankets on the floor, has nothing to do with respect for torah.
Look, it's ritualistic like so many other things are as well. but you have to live up to it which is what one strives for. If the boy is learning, or combining chol and kodesh and so is the girl, well he has the chiyuv and she doesn't. I know families like mine where the women have TREMENDOUS torah knowledge. But you know what? So do the men, and even more.
Lehavdil because I don't come up to their ankles in my torah knowledge, I have been taught well and learned a lot from my father. In certain things I could run rings around guys my age when I was 18 and 20 because of what my father had taught me, not only in practical halocho but in other iyuni things as well.
Which is WHY it was so important for me to marry someone so much more knowledgable than I was. And b"h I did. So while my kids to this day come to me first for practical halocho, for broad knowledge they know that their father outdoes me by a million percent. And thus he gets the kovod hatorah even though there are those who might call me a "learned woman" in some spheres.
Which remind me to ask, in these camps for kids do they teach the girls torah, dinnim and yiddishkeit like they teach the boys? Or just to have a good time?
It is up to every parent who puts boys first in any way to ensure that their daughters feel privileged in their own right. I don't think people all over the world do anything in one way only. I have seen SOME families across the globe sharing this custom, and obviously I have seen others that don't. I'm not stubborn enough to lie and say it's all I've ever seen. I thought that was obvious.
I thought imamother discredited him a while ago.
