I think "do it all" women should think a bit if that's the attitude they want to pass to their daughters instead of aiming for a fairer life (they may also rebel and dread marriage/kids, especially if do it all mom used them to do more chores than their dad...), and if that's what they want their DILS subjected to, too.
If my future son did that... grrrr he would hear from me! As for my DD I think BH she has already understood a great deal about marriage, from the gems she says, and she won't be a shmatta
If just for the kids, it is worth having the husband around and helping and interacting... my main goal personally is to raise the next generation to be frum and want to raise the next generation
I am sorry but learning is a nice thing for men but also a luxury. It should not be done on his wife's cheshbon. The ideal is that a mother is home with her children and maintains the home. Once that is not able to be accomplished then the women/men roles need to be reevaluated.
Wow. Ever read the Torah?
What are we building our homes for? Frum women saying learning is a luxury? Camp isn't a luxury but a man learning Torah is? Wow.
Shalhvet, the arrogance you are expressing is shocking!
Your comment in bold IS HURTFUL - totally against the torah you are preaching.
Please understand that even if Limud Torah is a חיוב (an obligation) "on the book",it might still be a FINANCIAL LUXURY in our financial world, specifically if it is INSTEAD of working and bringing an income.
The caring comment of Pickle lady is absolutely relevant to our reality as it is forbiden to make a Mitsva on Cheshbon of others. If someone says that the wife agrees AHEAD OF TIME, I would answer that she has absolutely no way of knowing ahead of time how she will really feel when she is pregnant, nursing, sleep deprive etc...
In any case, it is always good to express tolerance instance of hurting others.
quick question, to you Shalhvet: Do you also lash out such negative comments in real life or is it only in this forum? (just curious).
I am sorry but learning is a nice thing for men but also a luxury. It should not be done on his wife's cheshbon. The ideal is that a mother is home with her children and maintains the home. Once that is not able to be accomplished then the women/men roles need to be reevaluated.
Wow. Ever read the Torah?
What are we building our homes for? Frum women saying learning is a luxury? Camp isn't a luxury but a man learning Torah is? Wow.
We also have frum women saying that wearing a sheital, being a SAHM and having your children in a torah learning camp is a luxury.
I never read that a women should work just as much as her husband, that you MUST live in Israel and that your husband should never do housework so that he should be able to learn the minute he walks into the door.
There is more in the torah that just living in Israel and "learning torah".
oh and BTW I did learn that a wife working is a FAVOR to her husband. so in a sense its a luxury for a husband to have a wife working even if its something common.
What exactly are you trying to say? Yes, a woman working so that her husband doesn't have to provide parnasa is a favour.
But that doesn't make learning Torah a luxury. Vedibarta bam, beshivtecha beveisecha, uvelechtecha vaderech uveshovbecaha uvekumecha.
A man has a mitzva to learn all the time, unless he is busy with another mitzva/ physical need. I didn't say he should never do housework - sometimes a woman needs help, she can't manage by herself.
But that's not what you said - you said learning Torah is a luxury. Luxury = nice if you can, not so terrible if you can't. Vehagisa bo yomam valayla.
I don't really know what 'being done on the wife's cheshbon' means. Do you mean he shouldn't go off to learn when it is hard for her and she needs help? I agree. How hard? Up for debate. But what you said implied no great shakes if he never learns - it will always be on her cheshbon, right? That she'll have to wash the dishes instead of sitting down with a magazine and eat bon bons. Or instead of washing the floor again when she could have skipped that.
And why is limmud Torah so heilege for boys and dispensable for men?
And where again did you learn that you should judge a fellow jew based on your own capabilities?
energy (and maybe pickle?) - why do you think I'm talking about kolel? What has this to do with kolel? Pickle said learning Torah is a luxury - if she meant kolel is a luxury she should have said so and I would never have responded as I did. But I don't think that's what she meant.
I understood it to mean - a (working) man learning Torah for some part of the day is a luxury.
Every man/couple should ask their own rav how much THIS man needs to learn. A normal rav will give different answers based on level, personal history, working or not, level of involvement needed at home (SAHW without kids vs 15 rowdy kids and working mom lol).
To some (many?) working men, I hear it is one hour a day. It is definitely doable between commute, lunch break, "snack/cig" break... if a man also learns at home (before kids wake up? after kids go to bed?) it can easily be much more. While still being a mentsch.
I don't really know what 'being done on the wife's cheshbon' means. Do you mean he shouldn't go off to learn when it is hard for her and she needs help? I agree. How hard? Up for debate. But what you said implied no great shakes if he never learns - it will always be on her cheshbon, right? That she'll have to wash the dishes instead of sitting down with a magazine and eat bon bons. Or instead of washing the floor again when she could have skipped that.
I can think of some things she could be doing besides housework. Sleeping since Israeli working mothers have such little sleep as pointed out in previous posts. There is also zex. Remember zex is actually a mitzva and a wife can't do that alone while her husband is learning.
I guess there is more than just magazines and bon bons to do.
Boy some of you women seem to live on a different planet and belong to a different religion than I do. I also find it interesting that davka Shal and I, coming from totally different countries of origin, living in totally different cities, being of totally different age groups, and belonging to totally different shitos and those which are sometimes considered almost OPPOSITES of each other - have exactly the same take on this issue.
What world are you ladies living in where Limud Torah for men (boys, men, old men, young men, you know, those with the "aivers") is a LUXURY??? Maybe FULL TIME limud torah is a luxury but hey, a man is supposed to support his family, you know, like by the sweat of his brow etc...but that doesn't give him a ptor from studying torah in all the rest of his time...and if a couple comes to an agreement whereby the wife takes on working for pay so that the husband can study torah full time - that's their way of doing it and kol hakavod as long as it doesn't mean taking from the tzibur because of that decision. No difference in my mind between a full time working husband and a SAHM by choice because she feels her job is to be with the children full time.
But hey, to say TORAH is a luxury for men??? I am so totally flabbergasted and Hey - prepare yourselves ladies because I am going to BLAST BLAST BLAST right now.
If you don't like Freidasima at her most vehement - STOP READING NOW..
Long ago and far away when I studied Jewish history in Sem we were taught that one of the biggest arguments which misnagdim used against chassidim is that they were educating to BURUS - to IGNORANCE. Why? Because although it wasn't the idea milechaschila of the Besht, who was trying to have spirituality along with lamdanus, because of how chassidus developed and the fact that there were so many poor ignorant yidden in his day, they were the ones attracted to the Besht as the masses. Consequently, a lot of emphasis was put on dveikus, on Ruach, on the concept of the Zaddik and in practice - again, although this wasn't the original idea behind chassidus - less and less on actual learning and lamdanus. Yes I know, that's one of the changes that the Ba'al Hatanya made, more emphasis on learning and lamdanus. And I dont' see any Lubavitch posters here (correct me if I am wrong) saying that men should rather do sponja and household things than learn torah..
But as for the rest of chassidim...the way it seems to have developed is a lot of spirituality, a lot of minhogim, different dress, different outward things, but no great mesirus nefesh to get men to LEARN LEARN LEARN. I'm not saying full time or even part time, but in all their spare time at least.
So I find it interesting that it was a chassidish poster (pickle, correct me if I am wrong) who wrote that Limud torah for a man is a luxury. Kind of backs up what my sem teacher taught us about chassidim's emphasis, and somewhat ignorance as a result, compared to misnagdim (and my teacher was neither, just plain Shtark MO)...
So...someone reading this thread might actually get the impression that other than Lubavitch (read my lips Imaonwheels), Chassidus today says that chassidish men should work full time and their torah learning is a luxury which should be put off so that they can clean with their wives and go shopping with them, chassidish women should stay home and be housewives and top balabustas and that comes before anything else including taking care of the kids, chassidish kids should be farmed out to groups that will care for them during the day so that their mothers can clean the house quietly and shop and other things. These groups for the young boys have learning, including during the summer, all the time...but as soon as they get married - FREEDOM FROM LEARNING TORAH because then it's a luxury and better a wife should be rested so that she can make nice meals and be calm when her husband comes home and have the house all clean (or supervise her household help which cleans)...and then her husband should help her instead of finally getting around to learning Torah because that's a luxury but making sponja with the froy is a necessity because the man is stronger and can make sponja better (or that wasn't a chassidish poster who wrote that - delete...)...
AND...most of all..if you can't live this kind of lifestyle on your salary - it is fine and dandy to ask for zedoko to send the kids to these frameworks because you need your time to be a balabusta!!!
One last things before you start throwing rotten tomatoes at me - maybe all this emphasis on this camp for chassidish boys for learning is because what they won't get in as little boys in Torah learning, they might NEVER get...because as soon as they get married, which is FAST - like at 20 - well, LIMUD TORAH BECOMES A LUXURY!!!
Did I get it right ladies?
I have meetings for the next few hours and won't be back here until late - wonder what will happen in my absence...
A man is obligated to learn, I don't understand how anyone can say it's a luxury for them to learn.
No one needs to wear a shaitel, there are many other ways you can cover your hair, so a shaitel would be a luxury. and there are diff kinds of shaitels, you can get a synthetic wig for $30 - it doesnt need to be real hair....
Every man/couple should ask their own rav how much THIS man needs to learn. A normal rav will give different answers based on level, personal history, working or not, level of involvement needed at home (SAHW without kids vs 15 rowdy kids and working mom lol).
To some (many?) working men, I hear it is one hour a day. It is definitely doable between commute, lunch break, "snack/cig" break... if a man also learns at home (before kids wake up? after kids go to bed?) it can easily be much more. While still being a mentsch.
What I am saying that if all the things that some of these women are saying is a luxury, its pretty annoying that a man torah learning isn't a luxury either.
The torah mentions the need for breastfeeding, a mother taking the full role of being home with the kids and not supporting her family and more but so many women on this site love to forget that since its so common. The torah says alot not just live in israel and have your husband learn. Kollel is a whole different thing.
If a husband is going to need his wife to work than he will need to adjust his day to help his wife. Just like she adjusts her day to do the many things that she needs to do. If that means that he needs to learn while eating lunch than so be it. Ruchel you are right, a rav should be consulted regarding the husbands learning if his wife is working.
So I find it interesting that it was a chassidish poster (pickle, correct me if I am wrong) who wrote that Limud torah for a man is a luxury. Kind of backs up what my sem teacher taught us about chassidim's emphasis, and somewhat ignorance as a result, compared to misnagdim (and my teacher was neither, just plain Shtark MO)...
.
This thread proves that with ALL your husbands learning of torah you STILL keeping judging your fellow jew.
So I find it interesting that it was a chassidish poster (pickle, correct me if I am wrong) who wrote that Limud torah for a man is a luxury. Kind of backs up what my sem teacher taught us about chassidim's emphasis, and somewhat ignorance as a result, compared to misnagdim (and my teacher was neither, just plain Shtark MO)...
.
This thread proves that with ALL your husbands learning of torah you STILL keeping judging your fellow jew.
Judging what exactly?
Can you please clarify what you meant from the beginning, because I am still not sure. Are you trying to say a man learning Torah for a certain amount of time DAILY is a luxury?
What has judging got to do with it? Do you not know it's a Torah obligation for a man to learn whenever he can (and the whenever he can should be clarified with a rav), but certainly for a regular amount of time every day and night. All of us women from different places and different hashkafas are saying the halacha - the very basis of Torah - why is that called judging? Who or what is being judged?
Chassidim are ignorant but nice, Litvish learned but elitist and cold, and of course MO is just borderline liberal, ok it's getting old already, can we move on? why the sinas chinam?
In almost ALL circles, it is said to boys "learn a ton now, while you can devote all your day to it, because later IYH you will not stay an unmarried old bachur in kollel but you will be married, which is a mitsva, support your family, which is a mitsva, have children, which is a mitsva, teach your children/boys, which is a mitsva, treat your wife better than yourself, which is a mitsva, show your kids the beauty of Judaism by being a good father, which is a mitsva (there is a source that a man should have fun with his kids and make them laugh or whatever)...".
There are men who are honest, and it annoys them, so they delay marriage. On THEIR cheshbon. Maybe women here just have a bit more "betzim" as most, from shidduchim on, know what they will or not put up with. From what I see by friends and by girls I set up and from what boys tell me.
For sure once my husband has learned time X that HE (and not the neighbour) needs, or if I know he can do it one hour after, I would rather he helps me and has a life with me and his kid(s).
Now, I married davka "boy who learns", so yes I want him to learn, and that's also what I want my kid(s) to see growing up (a father with a sefer). My DD said recently Papa goes to the comp school (he studies still) and he goes to Torah school (the kollel), but the last one is the most important. I guess what we are doing is not too bad.
So I find it interesting that it was a chassidish poster (pickle, correct me if I am wrong) who wrote that Limud torah for a man is a luxury. Kind of backs up what my sem teacher taught us about chassidim's emphasis, and somewhat ignorance as a result, compared to misnagdim (and my teacher was neither, just plain Shtark MO)...
.
This thread proves that with ALL your husbands learning of torah you STILL keeping judging your fellow jew.
Judging what exactly?
Can you please clarify what you meant from the beginning, because I am still not sure. Are you trying to say a man learning Torah for a certain amount of time DAILY is a luxury?
What has judging got to do with it? Do you not know it's a Torah obligation for a man to learn whenever he can (and the whenever he can should be clarified with a rav), but certainly for a regular amount of time every day and night. All of us women from different places and different hashkafas are saying the halacha - the very basis of Torah - why is that called judging? Who or what is being judged?
there is 100+ pages of judging a fellow jew. This whole thread is judging a fellow jew. Judging meaning if I can take care of my kids and not send them to camp then you should be able to do it. Thats called judging. The numerous insults publicly to Mamabear. Judging!!!
A man can work and be kovayah itim after his children are in bed and asleep so that he can help his wife when she needs it. They are not mutually exclusive.
These groups for the young boys have learning, including during the summer, all the time...but as soon as they get married - FREEDOM FROM LEARNING TORAH because then it's a luxury and better a wife should be rested so that she can make nice meals and be calm when her husband comes home and have the house all clean (or supervise her household help which cleans)...and then her husband should help her instead of finally getting around to learning Torah because that's a luxury but making sponja with the froy is a necessity because the man is stronger and can make sponja better (or that wasn't a chassidish poster who wrote that - delete...)...
Wow, this is the weirdest thing coming out of this thread - I got told on this thread that no one else is like chassidim because THEY make their children's chinuch a top priority. That they never do anything with their sons, because THEY are in cheder the entire summer - no bein hazemanim, nada. And I believe I asked then how many of those boys who never got one day's bein hazemanim went on to learn in kolel as adults and I never got an answer.
So now I am totally puzzled/ curious/ can't understand (I am honestly trying to understand, not bash, at least on this point).
You hold that chinuch is so important - to the point that you think you care about it more than anyone else. You think it's a good idea that little boys should never have one day a year to unwind, because their limmud Torah is so vital. And then you say learning Torah once someone is married is a luxury???!! Did I understand? Or am I mixing things up and it's the same posters saying all the time that Torah learning is dispensable?
Quote:
One last things before you start throwing rotten tomatoes at me - maybe all this emphasis on this camp for chassidish boys for learning is because what they won't get in as little boys in Torah learning, they might NEVER get...because as soon as they get married, which is FAST - like at 20 - well, LIMUD TORAH BECOMES A LUXURY!!!
Or maybe, in light of other things here, it's a babysitter so mommy can go and buy furniture in peace?
Maybe I can explain torah as a luxury. On phone so not so verbose. A man is obligated to take care of his family. That needs to be a primary responsibility in his life. If his wife is up to it, then he can study torah on their cheshbon.
Chinuch is the responsibility of the Father and the best way to do that is hands on. Time. Energy.
Don't think I'm being so clear. Will add more later.
there is 100+ pages of judging a fellow jew. This whole thread is judging a fellow jew. Judging meaning if I can take care of my kids and not send them to camp then you should be able to do it. Thats called judging. The numerous insults publicly to Mamabear. Judging!!!
Hey, Pickle Lady, there's plenty of stuff in those 100 pages.
Why would you judge it all so harshly?
