Do I still got on page 100 or will I be "over" to page 101? We shall see, depends also how long my post is,no? And they are rarely short.
so here goes.
Ruchel life here is different. It's a dusty country. We don't have screens. We live with windows open because of the climate and the way the buildings are built. So we who have allergies have to dust. Almost daily.
Dry cleaning is for permanent press. My husband's suit jackets have to be dry cleaned. He only wears them during the winter though. It's not a "dryer" but "dry cleaning professionally". It's not often. And yes it's not cheap.
Vaad habayit and moetza - those are payments one pays to one's building, it's a cooperative building here in EY always, and you owe money for the electricity for the hall, for the water for the garden, in our case for the elevator and the cleaner of the stairs. By rotation various families take care of being in charge of the vaad habayit (that means "home council") stuff which includes keeping the bank account, paying the gardner, making sure the cleaner has cleaning supplies, paying the cleaner, turning on the shabbes elevator and turning it off, checking the solar (that's the oil used for heating the hot water and the apartment in apartments with central heat (think Jerusalem) during the winter) and lots of other things.
moetza - city council - more payments and other things which one needs from them. Can be easy, or can be lots of bureaucracy depending upon the city and the family's need. EY is full of bureaucracy.
7 AM leave for work - that's late for some people here Ruchel. We often start work at 7 or 7:30 with a half hour or more travel time to work. It's a hot country during the summer and people start work early. Once upon a time people worked from 7 to 1, went home from 1 to 4 and ate and rested and then came back to work from 4 to 7 or to 8. Today most places of work go straight but for those where you work 5 days a week it can often be that you have to work from 8 to 6 and are given half an hour for lunch. That 45 hours a week and most private places that I know work either 8 to 5 or 8 to 6 depending on how much lunch time you get (none, half an hour, an hour).
Chinuch, klei kodesh etc. These are people in rabbinics, education, other similar reliigous professions (my husband is in religious educational administration but for years he taught and still does occasionally). And when they come home, at
Baking, school events - very comon here, most women I know bake, young and old. It's cultural. School and shul events, you are expected to bring and bake.
Cleaning help - never had and hopefully until I get old and sick, won't need. Can do it myself.
Men doing sponja and other things - sure, they "know" how to do many of these things, but as a frum woman if you had a choice of your working another half hour to do the sponja AND the cooking or splitting it with your husband and each of you doing half an hour, OR his being able to go to a shiur or learn with his chavrusa WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
I can only tell you that most of the women I know, the frum women, would do the cooking and sponja themselves so that their husbands could learn.
Hey listen, as much as I fight with Chossidmom and Shal and all the other women whose husbands are or were full time learners while they worked, I think it's admirable. I don't think it's admirable when the husband learns and the wife sits home and the tzibur pays for it. But just as I don't chide a SAHM who lives on one ful ltime salary (the husbands) I won't chide a kollel family that lives on one ful time salary (the wife's).
However we women and men who work full time, that doesn't mean that we don't believe in limud torah. Just the opposite. Many of us know that it would be wonderful if we were independently wealthy and then our husbands could sit and learn all day. But we aren't and they can't and for whatever reason they work full time. My husband jokes that when he isn't doing real administration but preparing for the big shiurim he gives either at work or in shul,he is doing limud torah all day long so he is one of the lucky ones these days. But most aren't and so when they finally do get home and after they play a bit with their kids they definitely want to LEARN. It's a wonderful thing, I encourage it, my friends encourage it for their husbands and we don't consider it a bad trade off that they learn and we do almost all the housework. After all, we get the zechus for it as well dont we...
In short, I find it funny that this younger generation, which got such a good Jewish education, better than ours, would prefer chayei sha'aa meaning that their husbands do the sponja on friday, rather than send them off to a kollel yom shishi, like the one here that my husband gives shiurim to friday morning, to learn and have chayei netzach from it. Sure if you have something really important that you need to do as a couple - certain purchases that you need two minds for, or whatever and the only time is friday, ok. But otherwise? Why in the world should he be doing sponja for if he could be learning torah?!!! Could someone explain that to me? And why in the world if the wife isn't sick or the kids aren't sick should he be davening at home if there is a shul 100 steps away (we are spoiled here in our household) with a minyan?
I don't see it as sacrificing. I see it as normal.
Most women I know in the DL/MO sector crochet kippot, some knit sweaters for their kids and grandchildren. Many of us know how to sew. How do you think we could afford to clothe our four, five and six kids?
Imaonwheels I'm with you with the cellphone business. I too have a cheepie in spite of the fact that they would give me a smartphone from work. Don't want it. Don't want to be on internet 24/7. Don't want to take pictures etc. It's enough that my kids need smartphones from work because they ARE on call some of them 24/7.
Working friday - some people still do you know. My son in law hasn't had a friday off in a dog's years, only when you are a big senior doctor do you get off on Friday. Residents don't and he will be a resident until he is 42.
What did I forget? Probably twenty women posted in the time it took me to write this...
I agree with previous posters re: men helping when their wives work.
I also think that in general, when there's a lot to do, some of it just doesn't get done. When I have a long day at work, I often go to bed with several messes not taken care of, my studying not done, there may not have been time to take the kids to the park a second time like they wanted, etc.
I mean - dusting? wiping down the walls? doing the trissim? Around here, you're lucky if the floor is a. visible and b. not sticky.
The park a second time? You've got to be kidding. Around here, you're lucky if you go a first time on a regular weekday....
I agree with you that some things just don't get done if you are too busy. This should answer Kitov's question - a regular, healthy SAHM who is too overwhelmed and can't get things done with her kids at home, and can't afford camp - well, she remains overwhelmed (so many of us are) and she just doesn't get a lot of things done. C'est la vie.
Right.
I think that some people confuse a normal amount of stress, that simply comes with the territory of being a parent, with being overwhelmed. Wiping up messes and buying new shoes and being tired after chasing kids around in the park simply go with the territory. They're not extraordinary issues, unless the parent has physical or emotional limitations.
People confuse an optimized life with a life at the bare minimum. The fact that lots of things would be nice, or even that almost all of us would want and enjoy them, doesn't make them necessities. I think its fair to say that almost all of us would love to have substantial cleaning help, several hours a day, several days a week. I know I would. But that doesn't mean that the normal family, with parents who do not have physical or emotional limitations, can't handle keeping a home in decent shape. Does that mean washing the floors 4 times a day, or washing the walls once a week? Nope.
Not everything that makes our lives easier or more enjoyable is a necessity.
Well, I deal with household repairs, burnt out lightbulbs, and the va'ad bayit/arnona/etc. too, but DH does deal with the trash.
But you better believe that if one of the boys has "sprayed" it is DH's job to do that bathroom! (He is admittedly very good at bathrooms...)
And on behalf of all mothers of girls out there (although I don't have a girl), once they reach a reasonable age, hand any boy that misses a bottle of cleanser and a rag, and tell him to get to it. I did that with DS. He now has incredible aim.
I'm with you Barbara, my boys learned very fast to clean their own mess. But that doesn't mean that when you have seven people on one toilet who DO know how to aim it doesn't need a daily clean with a brush, bleach and the like.
FS, I dont want to join your "defining the SAHM" discussion. I just want to make one correction. No one is, or even wants, a 9 hour childfree day. The preschool day is 6 hours, not 9. Anyway, I cant participate in that dicussion from a stupid cell phone.
Oh yes, lifestyle changes. How much is it in the US to have a cell with an internet package, I consider that a major luxury. Here most really heimishe chaseedishe types have a mehadrin phone. You can only talk, it is an older machine, no sms or internet. Much, much cheaper than regular cell pac kage. Does a poor person have to have access to IM while out and about? My dh decided that for the time being one cell between us because he is out of work.
Just askin'
The smartphone (as opposed to regular cell service) part of my plan is about $30 per month. I have it because my firm picks it up, so I can have email access at all time. Otherwise, I consider it a luxury. One I really, really, really like, but still not necessary.
It seems to me davka being in chinuch is ideal with a family... yes, you may have papers to correct and grade, lessons you'll need to prepare at least the first years, but lots of vacation and you stop working when your kids stop school! It may also come with free, or certainly cheaper tuition...
That's why they push girls to Gateshead or Beth Hannah or Rashi center even if they are not Litvish/Chabad/MO to be kodesh teacher or mora... and they push many guys into being class rebbe or moreh or whatever...
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Why in the world should he be doing sponja for if he could be learning torah?!!!
We could say that on anything. He could also never help and barely see the kids except to teach the boys, "but he is learning".
Well, not with me. Not with many of my friends. Get married later (some do it!), or don't get married, if you don't care to treat your wife better than yourself. Or go to kollel and help once you are home. Or find a high paying job and get household help. Don't choose the "wife can do it" option, it's not fair as a human being and even less when the wife has no obligation to be married.
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Could someone explain that to me? And why in the world if the wife isn't sick or the kids aren't sick should he be davening at home if there is a shul 100 steps away (we are spoiled here in our household) with a minyan?
Some women cannot handle long hours alone with the kids trapped in the apartment (no eruv, baby, high floor, toddler...). I personally do not mind him going. But I am not dealing with 3 rowdy kids. And here you won't find a ultra long kiddush.
As for daily, well minian is often at very hectic moments: getting ready for school, bath, dinner... and yes, there are even men who feel that since they are getting up to daven anyway, they may as well handle mornings and let DW sleep.
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How do you think we could afford to clothe our four, five and six kids?
Ebay? second hand? markets?
Of course many people work on Friday. Hence no shiurim at the kollelim DH attended, because the guy has to make shabbes and the wife may be home just in time!! In summer there may be shiurim in the morning...
when both work it is hard... if both can't make it, then it is take out and very simple shabbes.
That said I've never heard of bleach in toilets...
It seems to me davka being in chinuch is ideal with a family... yes, you may have papers to correct and grade, lessons you'll need to prepare at least the first years, but lots of vacation and you stop working when your kids stop school! It may also come with free, or certainly cheaper tuition...
That's why they push girls to Gateshead or Beth Hannah or Rashi center even if they are not Litvish/Chabad/MO to be kodesh teacher or mora... and they push many guys into being class rebbe or moreh or whatever...
I was a teacher for many years and "yes, you may have papers to correct and grade" is not something insignificant. Plus telephone calls with parents. Preparing lessons etc. The lots of vacation includes meetings, in-service training, preparation days, preparing next year's work etc.
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Why in the world should he be doing sponja for if he could be learning torah?!!!
We could say that on anything. He could also never help and barely see the kids except to teach the boys, "but he is learning".
Well, not with me. Not with many of my friends. Get married later (some do it!), or don't get married, if you don't care to treat your wife better than yourself. Or go to kollel and help once you are home. Or find a high paying job and get household help. Don't choose the "wife can do it" option, it's not fair as a human being and even less when the wife has no obligation to be married.
Didn't I once ask you what a wife is obligated to do and you never answered? So I'm still curious.
A husband needs to help his wife if she needs the help, but you make it sound like a principle - my husband stam won't learn or go to minyan if he could help instead. Where's the end of that?
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Could someone explain that to me? And why in the world if the wife isn't sick or the kids aren't sick should he be davening at home if there is a shul 100 steps away (we are spoiled here in our household) with a minyan?
Some women cannot handle long hours alone with the kids trapped in the apartment (no eruv, baby, high floor, toddler...). I personally do not mind him going. But I am not dealing with 3 rowdy kids. And here you won't find a ultra long kiddush.
What does "cannot handle" mean? Are they sick? Or spoiled?
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As for daily, well minian is often at very hectic moments: getting ready for school, bath, dinner... and yes, there are even men who feel that since they are getting up to daven anyway, they may as well handle mornings and let DW sleep.
Why does she need to sleep? (unless she is sick, or has been up half the night with a baby and won't have a chance later to make it up). You make it sound like a Victorian novel - that women are sick, frail creatures who will drop if they have to wash a dish or get on with normal life. Well, Jewish women are not like that - we are strong, and we are willing to shoulder our part of responsibility so that our husbands can learn Torah and daven, not play the swooning heroine.
Does anyone know how many pages the imamother interface can cope with? Can it show a thread has 1000 pages? We'll have to keep going to find out.
Also, imagine when we're on p.659 at Chanuka time we'll be reminded of the warm summer and it will cheer us up as we warm our frostbitten hands (well, in Brooklyn anyway).
I was a teacher for many years and "yes, you may have papers to correct and grade" is not something insignificant. Plus telephone calls with parents. Preparing lessons etc. The lots of vacation includes meetings, in-service training, preparation days, preparing next year's work etc.
I do agree papers are not insignificant.
In my culture, phone calls with parents, well... it is not often. Meetings and training may also be "not often" depending on where you teach.
From older teachers, once you are set in your ways, you always use the same "lesson model" and you don't prepare anymore. Maybe also cultural.
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Didn't I once ask you what a wife is obligated to do and you never answered? So I'm still curious.
I answered, and even brought an even more drastic source for the record. You said no everyone holds that way. I agreed. I'm not into being bashed etc, I think to each their rav.
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A husband needs to help his wife if she needs the help, but you make it sound like a principle - my husband stam won't learn or go to minyan if he could help instead. Where's the end of that?
This is between every couple and possibly their rav. But when obviously ketuba duties or halacha duties aren't kept, there is a serious problem.
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What does "cannot handle" mean? Are they sick? Or spoiled?
The wife or the kids?
The wife is too tired, or too angried, by the kids.
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Why does she need to sleep?
She often doesn't need. She also doesn't need a birthday gift or a compliment. And the husband doesn't need her to be there for him if he wants to go out with her or whatever.
But it's nice to be nice.
We disagree on what normal life is. We know it, let's move on. I am not, 95% (and I'm generous here) frum women I know are not, your style.
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we are willing to shoulder our part of responsibility
I agree with previous posters re: men helping when their wives work.
I also think that in general, when there's a lot to do, some of it just doesn't get done. When I have a long day at work, I often go to bed with several messes not taken care of, my studying not done, there may not have been time to take the kids to the park a second time like they wanted, etc.
I mean - dusting? wiping down the walls? doing the trissim? Around here, you're lucky if the floor is a. visible and b. not sticky.
The park a second time? You've got to be kidding. Around here, you're lucky if you go a first time on a regular weekday....
I meant now, in the summer, when the kids are home. When they go to school or gan, then going out once in the afternoon/evening is plenty. That's with me working (set hours) from home - if I had to work out of the home then they'd be in camp, and I'd only take them out once.
Does anyone know how many pages the imamother interface can cope with? Can it show a thread has 1000 pages? We'll have to keep going to find out.
Also, imagine when we're on p.659 at Chanuka time we'll be reminded of the warm summer and it will cheer us up as we warm our frostbitten hands (well, in Brooklyn anyway).
No, cause when Chanuka comes, we get the "what do I do with my kids who are off for Chanuka" threads. Same basic idea.
[quote="freidasima"]Do I still got on page 100 or will I be "over" to page 101? We shall see, depends also how long my post is,no? And they are rarely short.
so here goes.
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Ruchel life here is different. It's a dusty country. We don't have screens. We live with windows open because of the climate and the way the buildings are built. So we who have allergies have to dust. Almost daily
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We have screens.
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Dry cleaning is for permanent press. My husband's suit jackets have to be dry cleaned. He only wears them during the winter though. It's not a "dryer" but "dry cleaning professionally". It's not often. And yes it's not cheap.
I didn't use "dry cleaning" much in the states either.
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7 AM leave for work - that's late for some people here Ruchel. We often start work at 7 or 7:30 with a half hour or more travel time to work. It's a hot country during the summer and people start work early. Once upon a time people worked from 7 to 1, went home from 1 to 4 and ate and rested and then came back to work from 4 to 7 or to 8. Today most places of work go straight but for those where you work 5 days a week it can often be that you have to work from 8 to 6 and are given half an hour for lunch. That 45 hours a week and most private places that I know work either 8 to 5 or 8 to 6 depending on how much lunch time you get (none, half an hour, an hour).
Depends on where you age going and when you are expected at work. Very few people I know have the hours you state above. Many of my friends work from home.
You are required to give a certain amount of time for lunch.
Chinuch, klei kodesh etc. These are people in rabbinics, education, other similar reliigous professions (my husband is in religious educational administration but for years he taught and still does occasionally). And when they come home, at
Baking, school events - very comon here, most women I know bake, young and old. It's cultural. School and shul events, you are expected to bring and bake.
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Men doing sponja and other things - sure, they "know" how to do many of these things, but as a frum woman if you had a choice of your working another half hour to do the sponja AND the cooking or splitting it with your husband and each of you doing half an hour, OR his being able to go to a shiur or learn with his chavrusa WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
He can help. Then he can go learn. You really think if he helps for 1/2hr he can't learn?
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Working friday - some people still do you know. My son in law hasn't had a friday off in a dog's years, only when you are a big senior doctor do you get off on Friday. Residents don't and he will be a resident until he is 42.
Most companies do. But no, probably not in the field of medicine.
Since I work staggered hours I can tell you the buses are full of people going to work and coming home from work at 7, 8, 9 and coming back at 1, 2,3, 4,5,6,7.
It isn't a contest to see who suffers the most or works the hardest or whatever. After 101 pages or is it more than that now? have we reached any sort of agreement or decision or will this thread simply not die, and our daughter's daughter's daughter's still be arguing?
Yeah, it IS a contest. Suffering is holy (for some), or shows you are strong as man (for others). I don't see anything praiseworthy in effort or suffering you could avoid.
To me doing it all alone or taking the kids out while in labour or refusing painkillers (unless you think they are dangerous) is a waste when you could avoid it, not something I would do even if I could (out of choice).
As my dad says life is hard enough without spoiling it for ourselves and our family. Keep your strength, you never know. Be nice to yourself, others may not be. Know your rights and not only your duties.
Did the weekly supermarket shopping and put it all away. Other kids played cards and used the computer. The girls filmed a music video of DS age 8 performing Candlelight by the Macabeats. They say it's a capalla. If I can get it up on YouTube I'll try to post a link!
DH went to see a yeshiva called Rashi in Geula. Supposedly not pressurized but normal guys. It may be good for one son, or another, or both(?) Anyone heard of it?
