Ok. It took me a couple of hours to catch up and wow. I think "wow" sums it up. Offering advice is ok, especially if the advice is requested. Sometimes sympathy and compassion is preferred. Sometimes when someone feels validated they can find the inner strength to find their own solutions. Just my two cents...
So can I ask you for tzedaka now????
I'm sure you have a valid reason for asking but unfortunately my financial situation is such that I can not offer you that kind of help right now. Ha'levay that all our financial situations should improve, and we can all afford to give but nobody has to ask. 8)
You admit that you HAVE two cents.
I also don't take tzedakkah for cleaning help or for day camp. Those our gifts from my parents/in-laws.
1) Kitov - there are still people who think that even with all the explanations about how chassidim need to send their kids to camp because the Rebbe this and that and the third thing, there are still posters like me and others who will ask: "if camp is necessary to continue learning for boys, and there are more and more families who can't afford it and need to take zedoko, why are the community leaders today, the rabbonim and mechanchim perpetuating a situation which requires more and more people to take zedoko instead of moving the "camp" back to the city to cut costs? I go back to my explanation of why so many people including rabbonim and the "Fresh Air Fund" thought that camp was important in the 1940s and 50s. Because of epidemics during the summer in the city. Punkt.
We no longer have summer epidemics of polio, TB and other choleras (literally) like that. So why can't one have a learning "camp" in the school building inside the city? Because you don't have "grounds"? Too bad. There are public parks and if an entire school of boys goes there to play on an outing (I know day camps that used to do that in my time in Queens) the ruach can be kept frum etc. They can't take public transportation? I have to pay for someone elses shmiras einayim with my zedoko so that he can rent a private bus?
2) I think that Saw is saying some very important things. And from a psychological point of view one could ask, "what makes a person think that their choices are so important that they would rather take charity to pay for them, rather than to make drastic changes in their lifestyle in order to be able to afford these choices?"
I agree with that but at the same time I can sympathize with those mothers who have trouble coping. Life can be rough and sometimes unforeseen circumstances come up. However I do agree that lifestyle changes and planning should be encouraged in a gentle and sensitive way.
Even though I seem kind of cold on here, I'm not.
I absolutely believe in helping those who can't cope, but that doesn't always mean throwing money at the problem. I would rather help people learn how to cope than to pay for their kids camp, even if it costs more. Its a better, long term solution.
Its like teaching a man to fish. Sometimes he needs to be taught, sometimes he needs the fish.
But I still maintain if you are choosing SAHM as your profession, watching your own kids for a few weeks should be feasible instead of choosing tzedaka.
And thanks FS :-D
Once again, I'm not disagreeing with most of the content rather I am suggesting other ways of delivering the message.
Lunch was a bowl of soup at 1 pm. I arrived home at 4:10, by then I was famished again.
From a fast food place? Water with a lot of salt, mostly. You should order something with protein and vegetables. Like a veggie pizza and milk. Or quiche and orange juice. Or a bagel, cream cheese, lox and sliced tomatoes. Or a tuna melt and salad.
Lunch was a bowl of soup at 1 pm. I arrived home at 4:10, by then I was famished again.
From a fast food place? Water with a lot of salt, mostly. You should order something with protein and vegetables. Like a veggie pizza and milk. Or quiche and orange juice. Or a bagel, cream cheese, lox and sliced tomatoes. Or a tuna melt and salad.
This thread made me wonder what I'll do about camp in a few years from now. Not that there aren't kids my kids' ages in "camp" already, but when they're old enough for science camp or art camp or whatever middle school aged kids do.
I can imagine my father offering to help pay for camp - if it was one of those places where they basically stick the kids together in groups and toss them in the woods somewhere with an ancient tent and a vague warning about not getting eaten by bears.
I don't think we have anything like that in Israel. Not enough bears .
Maybe I really will set my kids loose on the streets for protest season (what you Americans know as "summer"). Pick a cause, any cause, and go tent out about it for a while. Maybe hunger strike too, then I'll really save money.
The idea of camp that's just basically just school for another month - bleh. A respectful "bleh," since apparently gedolim endorse the idea. But really, the main benefit of camp (like the main point of school, IMHO) isn't the kind of learning you can quantify. If there's a benefit to camp it's in getting to start over again in a totally different social setting, about getting away from the teachers who annoyed you all year (instead of being stuck with them for a tenth month), about success being measured totally differently from the way it's measured the rest of the year, about learning new skills, etc... In many cases I'd be more happy to pay for camp middle-of-the-woods than camp sit-and-learn-some-more.
Maybe I'd compromise, for my kids, on a camp where you only fight off bears for half the day, and learn the other half. Like hesder, but with camp. And bears.
This thread made me wonder what I'll do about camp in a few years from now. Not that there aren't kids my kids' ages in "camp" already, but when they're old enough for science camp or art camp or whatever middle school aged kids do.
I can imagine my father offering to help pay for camp - if it was one of those places where they basically stick the kids together in groups and toss them in the woods somewhere with an ancient tent and a vague warning about not getting eaten by bears.
I don't think we have anything like that in Israel. Not enough bears .
Maybe I really will set my kids loose on the streets for protest season (what you Americans know as "summer"). Pick a cause, any cause, and go tent out about it for a while. Maybe hunger strike too, then I'll really save money.
The idea of camp that's just basically just school for another month - bleh. A respectful "bleh," since apparently gedolim endorse the idea. But really, the main benefit of camp (like the main point of school, IMHO) isn't the kind of learning you can quantify. If there's a benefit to camp it's in getting to start over again in a totally different social setting, about getting away from the teachers who annoyed you all year (instead of being stuck with them for a tenth month), about success being measured totally differently from the way it's measured the rest of the year, about learning new skills, etc... In many cases I'd be more happy to pay for camp middle-of-the-woods than camp sit-and-learn-some-more.
Maybe I'd compromise, for my kids, on a camp where you only fight off bears for half the day, and learn the other half. Like hesder, but with camp. And bears.
Welcome Saw, you hit the nail on the head over and over IMHO.
OK more on topic stuff.
All the things I'm reading on this thread, combined with what I read on others, leads me to one big question of which "sending to camp" is only one part..
How do you ladies (in plural) define your "job" of being a SAHM?
Mamabear wrote something along the lines of that even with a lot of her problems being solved she needs her kids out of the house to perform her household duties, or in her words: "I still need my daytime hours childfree to be able to accomplish my day's work." Meaning the emphasis here is on House and not on Kids during the daytime hours.
Similar sentiments were posted by a few other posters.
Other posters wrote differently, that for them the daytime hours were for Kids and the house either didn't get done or got done late at night or haphazardly with the kids around. Same for food.
So here is what I don't get.
For me, as a full time working mom who has always worked, a Working mom has the following jobs. And in my world she does all of them herself or with the exception of the first, to whatever extent with her dh if he is at all around to do some of the stuff:
1) full time work out of the house plus commute
2) shopping for food, sometimes at multiple stores
3) shopping for clothing, furniture, shoes, other household or personal goods
4) cleaning the house (dusting, vaccum, wash floors, sinks and toilets and bath or shower, wash outsides of closets in bedroom and kitchen, wipe down walls, do trisim and windows - all weekly at least)
5) cooking the food, serving, cleaning off, washing up dishes, drying and putting away dishes and pots
6) washing laundry, hanging, taking off the line, folding and putting away laundry
7) scheduling doctors appointments, houshold repairmen etc.
8) paying bills
9) taking care of banking, checkbook balancing, etc.
To that one adds things like
1) taking kids to doctors, treatments, dentists etc.
2) taking kids to friends for play dates in the late afternoon
3) having to go to your own doctors and dentist appointments
4) picking up clothing from dry cleaner
And of course depending on personal inclination"
1) sewing clothing for family
2) crocheting or knitting clothing for family
And then there are child related activities:
1) playing with your children
2) listening to your children
3) teaching your children Jewish and secular matters
4) teaching your children discipline and boundaries
And that doesn't even include special situations like:
1) caring for aged or ill parents
2) chessed communal volunteering
3) school, yeshiva or communal events you have to not only participate in but add to (like baking for a festival, a raffle etc.)
Now we working moms do all of this from the time we get home anywhere between 4 to 6 PM until we go to sleep. Many of us with no help at all and only very little assistance from our dh. And for many of us I would venture to say that our biggest "juggling" is that we want to spend more time with our kids but in the limited hours that we have, we have to do many things at once like listening to our children while doing laundry, playing with them while we are cooking, trying to teach them something while we are cleaning at the same time. We do get it all done and what "gives" is usually our sleep and our exhaustion.
For many of us working women, the concept of being a SAHM is the emphasis on the MOM part. Wow, if we had nine extra hours a day (yes!) where we are working outside the house (not to speak of our travel time) that would be free, we would use at least half or more just to be with our kids and have time to teach them, play with them, enjoy them without having to multitask all the time. After all, we manage to get everything else done somehow from 4 or 6 PM onward anyhow...so those hours can be devoted solely to the kids (with maybe half an hour or an hour for ourselves while they nap) and still do everything else.
That's what I don't get. That there are women who have those 9 hours which we dont and they want them to be "childless hours" so that they can get done what every working woman gets done anyhow in the afternoon and evening with the kids up and around.
What happened to the concept of being a mother? What is SAHM? Stay at home to clean your house and cook and this and that while you DONT spend time with your kids for whom you were ostensibly staying home in the first place?
Lunch was a bowl of soup at 1 pm. I arrived home at 4:10, by then I was famished again.
From a fast food place? Water with a lot of salt, mostly. You should order something with protein and vegetables. Like a veggie pizza and milk. Or quiche and orange juice. Or a bagel, cream cheese, lox and sliced tomatoes. Or a tuna melt and salad.
Great, now I'm hungry.
Come over. I have a tuna casserole in the oven .
Sounds wonderful.
But who would watch the kids if they're not in ... camp?
So, after bothering the Israeli Imamothers for exact directions to Sanhedria Park, my friend from Kiryat Sefer couldn't make it after all. Her baby kept her up all night, and she had to both nap and catch up on the errands missed during her nap.
After some kvetchy deliberation, 3 kids decided to accompany me to Yerushalayim anyway. One said she wanted to hang out at Center One AND in the Rova Yehudi by the Kotel. I said - ONE location only! And no begging to spend money on everything we see! After all, it's the Three Weeks - we don't buy things.
I called my 20 year old son who learns in Yerushalayim, to try to meet him there. I asked, "What are you doing now?" He said, "Oh, I'm with Orit!" WHAT? WHO is "Orit"? I recalled that his rebbe suggested a shidduch, but HOW DIDN'T I KNOW THAT THEY WERE MEETING?
So I gulped and said calmly and warmly, "Tell me about Orit!"
Turns out that my son was NOT in Yerushalayim, but back home, helping DH with some Kollel program. And he was at ORIT"S FALAFEL next door to the Kollel!
So we finally get to Center One and order pizza, potatoes with mushroom cream sauce and pasta. Did I mention that the kids said that DS age 4 was feeling unwell in the morning? he seemed in perfect health to me. Of course, as soon as we got all settled with our food at the table (which I had to explain several times "why" I wanted it heated up more), this charming tyke went and right there.
I grabbed like a whole roll of the place's paper towels, covered the mess, and started eating, determined not to allow this experience to be ruined. Then I noticed that DS's shirt was soiled with vomit, so I removed it and washed it off, but it was still yucky.
I herded my children to Rachel H, where there was a 1 + 1 sale, to buy my son a T-shirt to cover his naked upper body. Of course, my tzadeikeses start exclaiming, "IT'S THE THREE WEEKS. WE DON'T BUY THINGS."
I moved them along by promising ice cream once we'd get to the tachana merkazit already, so we could visit the Kotel. (The central bus station is, like, 3 minutes away, but it was taking them forever.) But When we arrived, DS didn't WANT THAT ice cream. Would you believe I walked with the kids all the way back to Center One for the kind he likes? And that he changed his mind after eating half?
After walking to several wrong bus stop areas, and videoing the Light Rail experimental runs with my phone, we FINALLY got on a #1 bus and FINALLY made it to the Kotel. I didn't mention all the bathroom stops, so just imagine them yourself.
DS spent our Kotel visit lying on the floor at my feet, staring up at the Heavens.
WE FINALLY made it back to the tachana merkazit, but alas, missed the last bus back to our city. So we took a bus to Bnei Brak (leaving me stuck with unused prepaid return fare tickets).
B"H my 20 year old son picked us up from there. I got in the car and asked, "Where's Orit?"
When I got home I had a beer.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Tue, Jul 26 2011, 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ora, of COURSE we have bears!
Didn't you read in today's paper that the bears in the Gan Hachayot Hatanachi were so hot that they were given lots of ice cream to lick to keep them cold?
When I told my mother today she said "my taxes are paying for bears to eat ice cream and you put me on a diet and tell me that I CANT HAVE ICE CREAM? AM I LESS IMPORTANT THAN A BEAR???"
So, after bothering the Israeli Imamothers for exact directions to Sanhedria Park, my friend from Kiryat Sefer couldn't make it after all. Her baby kept her up all night, and she had to both nap and catch up on the errands missed during her nap.
After some kvetchy deliberation, 3 kids decided to accompany me to Yerushalayim anyway. One said she wanted to hang out at Center One AND in the Rova Yehudi by the Kotel. I said - ONE location only! And no begging to spend money on everything we see! After all, it's the Three Weeks - we don't buy things.
I called my 20 year old son who learns in Yerushalayim, to try to meet him there. I asked, "What are you doing now?" He said, "Oh, I'm with Orit!" WHAT? WHO is "Orit"? I recalled that his rebbe suggested a shidduch, but HOW DIDN'T I KNOW THAT THEY WERE MEETING?
Turns out that my son was NOT in Yerushalayim, but back home, helping DH with some Kollel program. And he was at ORIT"S FALAFEL next door to the Kollel!
So we finally get to Center One and order pizza, potatoes with mushroom cream sauce and pasta. Did I mention that the kids said that DS age 4 was feeling unwell in the morning? he seemed in perfect health to me. Of course, as soon as we got all settled with our food at the table (which I had to explain several times "why" I wanted it heated up more), this charming tyke went and right there.
I grabbed like a whole roll of the place's paper towels, covered the mess, and started eating, determined not to allow this experience to be ruined. Then I noticed that DS's shirt was soiled with vomit, so I removed it and washed it off, but it was still yucky.
I herded my children to Rachel H, where there was a 1 + 1 sale, to buy my son a T-shirt to cover his naked upper body. Of course, my tzadeikeses start exclaiming, "IT'S THE THREE WEEKS. WE DON'T BUY THINGS."
I moved them along by promising ice cream once we'd get to the tachana merkazit already, so we could visit the Kotel. (The central bus station is, like, 3 minutes away, but it was taking them forever.) But When we arrived, DS didn't WANT THAT ice cream. Would you believe I walked with the kids all the way back to Center One for the kind he likes? And that he changed his mind after eating half?
After walking to several wrong bus stop areas, and videoing the Light Rail experimental runs with my phone, we FINALLY got on a #1 bus and FINALLY made it to the Kotel. I didn't mention all the bathroom stops, so just imagine them yourself.
DS spent our Kotel visit lying on the floor at my feet, staring up at the Heavens.
WE FINALLY made it back to the tachana merkazit, but alas, missed the last bus back to our city. So we took a bus to Bnei Brak (leaving me stuck with unused prepaid return fare tickets).
B"H my 20 year old son picked us up from there. I got in the car and asked, "Where's Orit?"
When I got home I had a beer.
Isramom, you rock!!
I was still hungry till you got to the part of your story.
My diet thanks you.
MommyZ thanks you, too.
And my campless campers will not need a babysitter while their mom goes gallivanting off to scarf some tuna casserole.
Lunch was a bowl of soup at 1 pm. I arrived home at 4:10, by then I was famished again.
From a fast food place? Water with a lot of salt, mostly. You should order something with protein and vegetables. Like a veggie pizza and milk. Or quiche and orange juice. Or a bagel, cream cheese, lox and sliced tomatoes. Or a tuna melt and salad.
Great, now I'm hungry.
Come over. I have a tuna casserole in the oven .
Sounds wonderful.
But who would watch the kids if they're not in ... camp?
All the imamothers who think that camp is not tzeddakah worthy?
Ora, of COURSE we have bears!
Didn't you read in today's paper that the bears in the Gan Hachayot Hatanachi were so hot that they were given lots of ice cream to lick to keep them cold?
When I told my mother today she said "my taxes are paying for bears to eat ice cream and you put me on a diet and tell me that I CANT HAVE ICE CREAM? AM I LESS IMPORTANT THAN A BEAR???"
For real. She said this.
to your mom.
Hmmm... I'm glad to hear we have bears, but somehow I doubt the staff at the Tanachi zoo will be happy if I try to set up a makeshift camp for my kids in the middle of their exhibit.
Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone (poor birds) - posters in New York can make extra money by selling us some of their bears (ice cream not included). Then we can all have camp.
Also, your list of things mothers have to do tired me out so much that I can no longer follow this thread. I must go to bed; I do so with the hope that when I come back tomorrow morning I will find this thread at 100+ pages.
Merelyme, it was a little off putting for me too...have a fruit now, and make yourself a tomato-cucumber salad with cheese and/or tuna and salad dressing for breakfast.
Ora, of COURSE we have bears!
Didn't you read in today's paper that the bears in the Gan Hachayot Hatanachi were so hot that they were given lots of ice cream to lick to keep them cold?
When I told my mother today she said "my taxes are paying for bears to eat ice cream and you put me on a diet and tell me that I CANT HAVE ICE CREAM? AM I LESS IMPORTANT THAN A BEAR???"
For real. She said this.
to your mom.
Hmmm... I'm glad to hear we have bears, but somehow I doubt the staff at the Tanachi zoo will be happy if I try to set up a makeshift camp for my kids in the middle of their exhibit.
Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone (poor birds) - posters in New York can make extra money by selling us some of their bears (ice cream not included). Then we can all have camp.
Also, your list of things mothers have to do tired me out so much that I can no longer follow this thread. I must go to bed; I do so with the hope that when I come back tomorrow morning I will find this thread at 100+ pages.
Tell your mom that the lions and tigers get bloodsicles; you'll let her have one of those. But I thought the bears just got frozen fish.
Anyway, my son's camp has bear-proof trash cans, which I guess means they also have bears. My opinion? No thanks.
Ora, of COURSE we have bears!
Didn't you read in today's paper that the bears in the Gan Hachayot Hatanachi were so hot that they were given lots of ice cream to lick to keep them cold?
When I told my mother today she said "my taxes are paying for bears to eat ice cream and you put me on a diet and tell me that I CANT HAVE ICE CREAM? AM I LESS IMPORTANT THAN A BEAR???"
For real. She said this.
to your mom.
Hmmm... I'm glad to hear we have bears, but somehow I doubt the staff at the Tanachi zoo will be happy if I try to set up a makeshift camp for my kids in the middle of their exhibit.
Maybe we could kill two birds with one stone (poor birds) - posters in New York can make extra money by selling us some of their bears (ice cream not included). Then we can all have camp.
Also, your list of things mothers have to do tired me out so much that I can no longer follow this thread. I must go to bed; I do so with the hope that when I come back tomorrow morning I will find this thread at 100+ pages.
Tell your mom that the lions and tigers get bloodsicles; you'll let her have one of those. But I thought the bears just got frozen fish.
Anyway, my son's camp has bear-proof trash cans, which I guess means they also have bears. My opinion? No thanks.
Today I unpacked the last of our boxes, went food and other shopping, washed laiundry, and cooked a fresh hot supper... All while the kiddies werent home. It was amazing, bh. Now my older ds is playing in our amazing concrete backyard, dh is bathing younger ds, and I'm bh relaxing. Nu, how about a happy update from me for a change?
FS, I dont want to join your "defining the SAHM" discussion. I just want to make one correction. No one is, or even wants, a 9 hour childfree day. The preschool day is 6 hours, not 9. Anyway, I cant participate in that dicussion from a stupid cell phone.
.
.
WHO is "Orit"? I recalled that his rebbe suggested a shidduch, but HOW DIDN'T I KNOW THAT THEY WERE MEETING?
right there.
