I can only think of ONE MO school in the NY area where I haven't heard of drinking and pot - filled parties.
Why do parents pay? especially MO (= very high) tuition? better send to a charedi school and supplement whatever you want to supplement... influences are SO important, even more than curriculum.
I went to at least two very frum schools where there were drug problems. I was friendly with a girl, and found out after she was thrown out of school for participating in a tv interview about drugs in frum high schools that she had been taking some hard core drugs. I would not have had any clue otherwise. I was very naive. I was offered a cigarette once and refused it. I was never offered alcohol or drugs.
DH went to very frum schools as well (Litvish/Yeshivish) and he had a lot of friends who used hard core drugs. Some of them turned their lives around and some of them died of overdoses. DH says he never used drugs and he was the one who the drug addicted friends turned to when they needed to be bailed out of trouble that they get into while they were high.
To send to charedi school you have to take out your TV, cover your hair a certain way, dress a certain way, daven in certain places and follow a dress code for the child, both inside and outside of school, that is not the way of life of the family and their surroundings and family.
Any "yeshivish modern" or whatever place where they won't ask as much?
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you dont negate the existence of the State of Israel and call it a sin and call Yom Ha'atzmaut another tisha be'av.
Any yeshivish school more neutral or avoiding the topic?
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The divide is so great it would be like telling you to send your child to a convent because the education there is so wonderful as is the discipline.
I guess it is something hard for me to understand. I'm more used to school studying what is "classic" for them... and ignoring what isn't their hashkafa.
I had also forgotten about the 6 days, right it makes it very hard.
No school "in the middle"? Or mixed (maybe only in small communities?)
(I was proposed several shidduchim in America, and for various reasons it wasn't good. Now I see how fitting it was for me to stay here )
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Secular schools teach the tiniest minimum of tanach but that's it. All schools teach jewish history, hebrew language and literature, including secular schools, it's part of the curriculum.
That's what I meant. This + an option after.
Last edited by Ruchel on Mon, Jul 18 2011, 3:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
The question isn't where drugs are or aren't, it's the connection (if there is any) between supervision and drug use (not between involvement and drug use, that's a different story).
There was plenty of drug use at my (public) high school in the states. And there were plenty of people who used no drugs/light drugs who were friends with heavy drug users.
But I don't see how parents deciding to put their foot down, or heavily supervise their kids, would have helped stop the drug use. Open communication can help, trying to get your kid involved in positive and productive activity can help, building a kid's confidence helps - but that's all basic stuff, and hopefully every parent is doing that already, regardless of whether or not they insist on being home when their teens are.
Once your teen wants to get up to no good - there's not so much left to do. IMHO. If you KNOW that they are using drugs or engaging in other bad activity that's one thing, I don't think a parent has to allow that in their house, although there's still not much to do but offer help and support, and pray... but if you just suspect "oh maybe if left alone they'll do bad things" - yeah, maybe they will, so what, you're going to supervise them for life? Even if you keep them under full house arrest until graduation they'll just head into the world that much more eager for "experience" and that much more eager to rebel.
I guess it boils down to Israel versus the US AGAIN....
So what didn't we cover yet? Natural Parenting, I think. So since drugs are organically grown, are kids from NP working parents at a higher risk of trying drugs?
Lots of pesticides. And some are man-made chemicals. Naturally parenting kids wouldn't touch 'em.
I guess it boils down to Israel versus the US AGAIN....
So what didn't we cover yet? Natural Parenting, I think. So since drugs are organically grown, are kids from NP working parents at a higher risk of trying drugs?
Lots of pesticides. And some are man-made chemicals. Naturally parenting kids wouldn't touch 'em.
I guess it boils down to Israel versus the US AGAIN....
So what didn't we cover yet? Natural Parenting, I think. So since drugs are organically grown, are kids from NP working parents at a higher risk of trying drugs?
Lots of pesticides. And some are man-made chemicals. Naturally parenting kids wouldn't touch 'em.
How about organic, pesticide free pot?
Only available for kids of parents who don't send to camp if they are SAHM and there's not too much room in the budget, while being responsible and using BC so they can only have kids they can afford.
I guess it boils down to Israel versus the US AGAIN....
So what didn't we cover yet? Natural Parenting, I think. So since drugs are organically grown, are kids from NP working parents at a higher risk of trying drugs?
Lots of pesticides. And some are man-made chemicals. Naturally parenting kids wouldn't touch 'em.
How about organic, pesticide free pot?
Only available for kids of parents who don't send to camp if they are SAHM and there's not too much room in the budget, while being responsible and using BC so they can only have kids they can afford.
Presumably, they're using the pot to stay mellow so they can look after all the kids. Which, of course, begs the question -- should they be entitled to use tzedaka to buy their organic weed?
Ok here's one for you.
If drugs are so rampant at frum (MO and charedi) schools then why exactly is it better for a SAHM, as hard as it is for her, to send her kids to camp? Because hey, isn't camp a continuation of school but just better? Which means...at least for older kids, if drugs are rampant in their schools or at least available, then aren't they rampant or at least available at camp where there is less full time supervision around and lots of places to hide stuff, play and get away in the woods to smoke, pop pills etc? Not to speak of drinking?
Seriously, then isn't there a drug problem in the camps? How can they be so totally different from the schools if there are the same kids going? What? The dealers haven't figured out how to get the stuff up to the camps? A buck is a buck...
So why send to camp? At least if you are a SAHM - not talking about leaving 14 year old bochurs when you are a WAHM - you see your kids all the time and there is less chance of their wandering off to the woods to smoke pot etc....or am I missing something? Is camp fairy land with a no drugs policy that is enforced so well that not a drop passes the front gate? If so, and if these are the same mechanchim, how come they can't police their schools that well?
I have a feeling that when it comes to drugs EY really is different.
Remember that we are also a country that until ten or fifteen years ago when the Russian aliyah came, we didn't really have a drinking problem either. That culture just didn't exist.
Why? Because there were things that were considered normal here and so it wasn't an issue. Until a few years ago you could send a toddler to the supermarket and he could buy a bottle of wine or even lousy Israeli brandy. Because there was no drinking problem. Kids wanted wine? They got it every shabbos, the dati, charedi and mesorati kids which was a heck of a lot of kids. In those days Israeli young people didn't travel that much to the west to live there and learn from the non jews about the joys of your afternoon martini and all that stuff. So drinking only really became an issue when there began to be an entire drinking culture brought here by immigrants from the FSU.
Now...as most of the olim from Russia weren't religious, they really didn't affect the religious school systems and certainly not the charedi ones. Because the ones who became frum or charedi? They absorbed the DL or the charedi culture which once again didn't include liquor. To this day there really isn't a "drinking problem" among dati or charedi teens. Sure there are some who are OTD but we aren't talking about leaving bochurim who are already OTD with lots of OTD friends alone for hours. And at least in DL circles, if you are OTD you are kicked out of your yeshiva tichonit toute suite.
Wish that were true, excessive drinking is becoming a serious problem with DL teens. Some shuls have even started banning alcohol at kidushim to fight the phenomenon (in Efrat for instance).
I don't have first hand knowledge about how serious this problem is in chareidi circles, but I have personally seen shababnikim drunk on more than one occasion.
Alcohol has become a very very serious issue with teens of all sectors in Israel.
It's not that if you send your DC to a DL he or she will become an alcoholic, but this is a very real concern that parents should be aware of. I know that many parents don't realize that things have changed in the past five years or so.
I have a feeling that when it comes to drugs EY really is different.
Remember that we are also a country that until ten or fifteen years ago when the Russian aliyah came, we didn't really have a drinking problem either. That culture just didn't exist.
Why? Because there were things that were considered normal here and so it wasn't an issue. Until a few years ago you could send a toddler to the supermarket and he could buy a bottle of wine or even lousy Israeli brandy. Because there was no drinking problem. Kids wanted wine? They got it every shabbos, the dati, charedi and mesorati kids which was a heck of a lot of kids. In those days Israeli young people didn't travel that much to the west to live there and learn from the non jews about the joys of your afternoon martini and all that stuff. So drinking only really became an issue when there began to be an entire drinking culture brought here by immigrants from the FSU.
Now...as most of the olim from Russia weren't religious, they really didn't affect the religious school systems and certainly not the charedi ones. Because the ones who became frum or charedi? They absorbed the DL or the charedi culture which once again didn't include liquor. To this day there really isn't a "drinking problem" among dati or charedi teens. Sure there are some who are OTD but we aren't talking about leaving bochurim who are already OTD with lots of OTD friends alone for hours. And at least in DL circles, if you are OTD you are kicked out of your yeshiva tichonit toute suite.
Wish that were true, excessive drinking is becoming a serious problem with DL teens. Some shuls have even started banning alcohol at kidushim to fight the phenomenon (in Efrat for instance).
I don't have first hand knowledge about how serious this problem is in chareidi circles, but I have personally seen shababnikim drunk on more than one occasion.
Alcohol has become a very very serious issue with teens of all sectors in Israel.
It's not that if you send your DC to a DL high school he or she will become an alcoholic, but this is a very real concern that parents should be aware of. I know that many parents don't realize that things have changed in the past five years or so.
I have a feeling that when it comes to drugs EY really is different.
Remember that we are also a country that until ten or fifteen years ago when the Russian aliyah came, we didn't really have a drinking problem either. That culture just didn't exist.
Why? Because there were things that were considered normal here and so it wasn't an issue. Until a few years ago you could send a toddler to the supermarket and he could buy a bottle of wine or even lousy Israeli brandy. Because there was no drinking problem. Kids wanted wine? They got it every shabbos, the dati, charedi and mesorati kids which was a heck of a lot of kids. In those days Israeli young people didn't travel that much to the west to live there and learn from the non jews about the joys of your afternoon martini and all that stuff. So drinking only really became an issue when there began to be an entire drinking culture brought here by immigrants from the FSU.
Now...as most of the olim from Russia weren't religious, they really didn't affect the religious school systems and certainly not the charedi ones. Because the ones who became frum or charedi? They absorbed the DL or the charedi culture which once again didn't include liquor. To this day there really isn't a "drinking problem" among dati or charedi teens. Sure there are some who are OTD but we aren't talking about leaving bochurim who are already OTD with lots of OTD friends alone for hours. And at least in DL circles, if you are OTD you are kicked out of your yeshiva tichonit toute suite.
Wish that were true, excessive drinking is becoming a serious problem with DL teens. Some shuls have even started banning alcohol at kidushim to fight the phenomenon (in Efrat for instance).
I don't have first hand knowledge about how serious this problem is in chareidi circles, but I have personally seen shababnikim drunk on more than one occasion.
Alcohol has become a very very serious issue with teens of all sectors in Israel.
It's not that if you send your DC to a DL high school he or she will become an alcoholic, but this is a very real concern that parents should be aware of. I know that many parents don't realize that things have changed in the past five years or so.
I have a feeling that when it comes to drugs EY really is different.
Remember that we are also a country that until ten or fifteen years ago when the Russian aliyah came, we didn't really have a drinking problem either. That culture just didn't exist.
Why? Because there were things that were considered normal here and so it wasn't an issue. Until a few years ago you could send a toddler to the supermarket and he could buy a bottle of wine or even lousy Israeli brandy. Because there was no drinking problem. Kids wanted wine? They got it every shabbos, the dati, charedi and mesorati kids which was a heck of a lot of kids. In those days Israeli young people didn't travel that much to the west to live there and learn from the non jews about the joys of your afternoon martini and all that stuff. So drinking only really became an issue when there began to be an entire drinking culture brought here by immigrants from the FSU.
Now...as most of the olim from Russia weren't religious, they really didn't affect the religious school systems and certainly not the charedi ones. Because the ones who became frum or charedi? They absorbed the DL or the charedi culture which once again didn't include liquor. To this day there really isn't a "drinking problem" among dati or charedi teens. Sure there are some who are OTD but we aren't talking about leaving bochurim who are already OTD with lots of OTD friends alone for hours. And at least in DL circles, if you are OTD you are kicked out of your yeshiva tichonit toute suite.
Wish that were true, excessive drinking is becoming a serious problem with DL teens. Some shuls have even started banning alcohol at kidushim to fight the phenomenon (in Efrat for instance).
I don't have first hand knowledge about how serious this problem is in chareidi circles, but I have personally seen shababnikim drunk on more than one occasion.
Alcohol has become a very very serious issue with teens of all sectors in Israel.
It's not that if you send your DC to a DL high school he or she will become an alcoholic, but this is a very real concern that parents should be aware of. I know that many parents don't realize that things have changed in the past five years or so.
A bit off topic, but then these last few pages have been off topic....it's not quite true, FS, that dati kids don't ever go to secular schools. Not true at all actually. I know quite a few frum teens in the secular system. They are usually boys. Some end up in the secular system because there are no good dati schools in their area that don't require dorming in, and they don't want to leave home; some go because they are a bit too unconventional for the regular frum school; but the vast majority go because they can't or don't want to deal with the extremely long hours at most boys' dati schools. Not all boys are cut out to learn till 5 or 6 or 7 every evening.
Some of these boys do eventually become less religious, some stay the same, and some influence their classmates to take up tefillin, etc. I see it all the time.
chanchy, I think Efrat is a bit different because it's so heavily American. Which affects both the drinking culture, and the steps parents think are appropriate to try to stop it.
Not that drinking isn't an issue here, but it's not the same issue. I do think that many Israeli teens drink and even get drunk, but if you look at American-Israeli, Russian-Israeli and Israeli-Israel circles there still is a noticeable difference in the nature and degree of the problem.
I guess it boils down to Israel versus the US AGAIN....
So what didn't we cover yet? Natural Parenting, I think. So since drugs are organically grown, are kids from NP working parents at a higher risk of trying drugs?
Lots of pesticides. And some are man-made chemicals. Naturally parenting kids wouldn't touch 'em.
How about organic, pesticide free pot?
Only available for kids of parents who don't send to camp if they are SAHM and there's not too much room in the budget, while being responsible and using BC so they can only have kids they can afford.
Presumably, they're using the pot to stay mellow so they can look after all the kids. Which, of course, begs the question -- should they be entitled to use tzedaka to buy their organic weed?
A definite she'eilah - especially if it will save them from having to send the kids to camp.
Let me think which is the best Rav to ask this burning issue. (pun intended, groan.)
chanchy, I think Efrat is a bit different because it's so heavily American. Which affects both the drinking culture, and the steps parents think are appropriate to try to stop it.
Not that drinking isn't an issue here, but it's not the same issue. I do think that many Israeli teens drink and even get drunk, but if you look at American-Israeli, Russian-Israeli and Israeli-Israel circles there still is a noticeable difference in the nature and degree of the problem.
Efrat was just an example.
A recent (few months ago) article in Makor Rishon was dedicated to the problem in regualr mainstream Israeli DL teen society, and judging from my teen siblings FB pages this is an actual problem.
This problem has leaked from immigrants (Russian and others) into all parts of society.
Israel is currently the second largest consumer (per capita) of vodka.
chanchy, you didn't need to take such extreme steps to get to page 74, you know.
I'm sorry
I've never been so far in a thread.
I meant the accidental quadruple posting and it was supposed to be funny. I guess it's my British sense of humour (with a u) again that I think everyone will understand.
)
and it was supposed to be funny. I guess it's my British sense of humour (with a u) again that I think everyone will understand. 
