No kidding, I had no idea. Thank you for alerting me to the state of the world.
Zigi didn't write that she was asking for money. She was replying to a poster who asked if it could be that difficult being at home with her kids. At any rate how do you know what Zigi's life is like. You have no idea whether she fits your criteria for having a hard life or not. Maybe for hergetting all 5 kids downstairs is just the tip of the iceberg.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you are judging others like this.
Att: Brooklyn SAHM's with multiple kids at home. Please don't bother with this thread anymore. Life's daily aggravations are bad enough without comments from Imasmugmother.com.
Please? You can easily find a better sounding board than this. This thread is like galus. Please redeem yourselves.
No kidding, I had no idea. Thank you for alerting me to the state of the world.
Zigi didn't write that she was asking for money. She was replying to a poster who asked if it could be that difficult being at home with her kids. At any rate how do you know what Zigi's life is like. You have no idea whether she fits your criteria for having a hard life or not. Maybe for hergetting all 5 kids downstairs is just the tip of the iceberg.
Don't pretend to be so caring when you are judging others like this.
PRETEND to care? And you're calling me judgmental?
I, for one, have never judged anyone who said that raising kids is tough. It is. But that's not what this thread is about. Its about whether camp is a NECESSITY for STAY AT HOME MOTHERS who CANNOT AFFORD IT, such that CHARITY -- that could be used to feed starving kids -- should be used to fund it. And YOU claim that I don't know what reality is because I don't understand what necessity is because I don't deem that stay at home mother's need to be as urgent as that starving baby.
There's a fine balance with tzedaka IMHO. On the one hand, yes, give to the most needy over the needy-but-less-needy. That's the halacha as well - someone who can't afford food over someone who can't afford clothes, etc.
OTOH, it's also a valid use of maaser money to spend some on projects that build up the community and don't specifically help the poor. You can use maaser money to help build a mikva or give a scholarship to yeshiva or any other number of good causes that aren't aimed at the neediest poor, but instead are aimed at boosting the Jewish community in general.
So while I do agree that it's probably better for the community as a whole if there are non-camp options, I don't think money given to help kids go to camp should be seen as money taken from a poor child's mouth. There's sustaining-the-poor money and then there's building-the-community money and it's fine (even recommended, IIRC) to give a bit to both.
There's a fine balance with tzedaka IMHO. On the one hand, yes, give to the most needy over the needy-but-less-needy. That's the halacha as well - someone who can't afford food over someone who can't afford clothes, etc.
OTOH, it's also a valid use of maaser money to spend some on projects that build up the community and don't specifically help the poor. You can use maaser money to help build a mikva or give a scholarship to yeshiva or any other number of good causes that aren't aimed at the neediest poor, but instead are aimed at boosting the Jewish community in general.
So while I do agree that it's probably better for the community as a whole if there are non-camp options, I don't think money given to help kids go to camp should be seen as money taken from a poor child's mouth. There's sustaining-the-poor money and then there's building-the-community money and it's fine (even recommended, IIRC) to give a bit to both.
You're right, of course. The fact that *I* can't bring myself to donate to much of anything other than organizations that feed the hungry doesn't make it wrong for anyone else. Let's just agree its one of *my* limitations.
But it does irk me -- rather obviously -- when we, as a society, don't occasionally stop and realize how privileged and lucky we really are. When DS whines because I bought him a very nice, but not name brand, sweatshirt for $12 instead of the $55 Abercrombie his friends all have. Or when people equate their very real child-raising challenges -- and I have never questioned that the challenges are real -- with the very real challenges of lacking necessities.
Many is the night I've had enough of the things we don't have, and yelled at DH, I can't live like this. I need ..... And even I need to step back and say no, I don't *need* My life would be a lot nicer with. But that's not need.
I don't see a difference in tzedaka for yeshiva and tzedaka for camp.
Are mothers that send their sons to yeshiva and ask for tzedeka to send them to camp, are they lazy? I don't think so.
Caring for little kids are much different that caring for older kids and their needs. Young kids (under 5)can be pacified easily but not always. Which is why some parents do need camp for them . But the mothers who have kids under 5 and think "well if I can do it then why can't they" is wrong. It can't be measured across the board.
Whoa, half a day away at work and family and I get back and see everyone is already throwing rocks on this thread.
Look there are halochos that have to do with zedoko and the basis is that if someone doesn't have food and could die that comes before basically anything else. In fact anything that can keep someone physically alive comes before things like a mikva, a shul, etc. Pidyon shvuyim for money, food, basic shelter etc. all these things come before yeshiva, mikva, even a dayan or rov for a kehilla.
There is the issue of Jewish starving versus non jews starving and yes that is a serious problem in halocho and I don't want to go there.
There is something that people aren't saying straight out.
No one says that it is easy taking care of small children.
No one said that it isn't exhausting taking care of small children,
No one said that mothers dont feel, even often that they are at the end of their tether.
No one said that mothers' don't want a vacation.
But sweeties, that's what being a mother is all about. Maybe in kallah classes they didn't teach you the realities of the results of TH only how to wipe bedikos and count your calendar but the nitty gritty is that the purpose of TH is sekx and the outcome of sekx is kids and kids are TOUGH. Tough to be pregnant with, tough to birth, and tough to raise. That's life kiddos.
There are many many many many compensations b"h. But the hard stuff? It's NORMAL. it's what raising kids has always been about since time immemorial.
And mothers are allowed to complain. And complain. And complain. And vent and cry and even scream at their kids although it isn't recommended. But hey, everyone does it at some point unless they are a maloch and the place of malochim is in the sky not on earth.
But past complaining? As they say here in kupat cholim..take a number lady and wait your turn. To go and ask for zedoko to pay for camp if you can't afford it because you can't cope with your kids when we are talking about normal kids? Boy o boy o boy is that over the roof in my book.
Unless you are physically ill, handicapped or something else and unless your kid is not normal in one way or another you are in the same boat as pretty much the rest of the world and why in the world should someone pay for your kids to go to camp? What makes YOU so special that you deserve it? Because you say "I can't cope?" People who can't cope and have kids? It's their problem. Just like people who buy a big house and realize that they don't earn enough to pay the mortgage? It's their problem. Just like people who know that getting married means having to cook and clean and take care of their spouses needs and their own on their own but when they do it start crying "oy it's so hard, someone has to pay for a cleaning lady and a cook for me because I just can't cope" when they are perfectly healthy.
someone said it was easy? Why is everyone looking for easy? The same way that chazal say "eretz yisroel nikneit biysurim" - it isn't easy sometimes to "earn" the zechus of being in EY, so it is with caring for a spouse, for a house, cooking, cleaning and taking care of kids. If you can afford to get help with it all - wonderful! But if you can't? Why is that considered zedoko?
As for equating Jewish education and camp? Wow...next thing is Jewish education and getting a custom $4000 sheitl or a $10,000 engagement wring or a silver esrog box. It's all THE JEWISH WAY OF LIFE!!! no?
I don't see a difference in tzedaka for yeshiva and tzedaka for camp.
Are mothers that send their sons to yeshiva and ask for tzedeka to send them to camp, are they lazy? I don't think so.
Caring for little kids are much different that caring for older kids and their needs. Young kids (under 5)can be pacified easily but not always. Which is why some parents do need camp for them . But the mothers who have kids under 5 and think "well if I can do it then why can't they" is wrong. It can't be measured across the board.
We've come full circle.
Briefly, there are some who don't believe that tzedaka should be available for yeshiva. I'm not one of those, BTW (although I do think we need a more sustainable method for funding schools). But even if you do see the need, that's because all children need an education, and we are halachically obligated to teach our children and Torah and to prepare them for life as a religious Jew, which requires a great deal of knowledge.
While camp includes davening, and often includes a small educational element, it is primarily fun. So while one may certainly argue that there is a halachic obligation for our children to attend yeshivas, I don't think that one can legitimately argue that camp is a halachic obligation.
At that point, it becomes a balancing act. If one can afford camp, great. If one cannot, and has particular personal limitations, or children with special and unusual needs, then there may also be a need. And if you're working outside of the home, or at home, and need child care, it may be a necessity.
After that, the discussion becomes strange (IMNSHO). Women arguing that no one can handle their kids at home over vacation and then, when people point out that some women do just that, being accused of insensitivity, of not understanding, and of being downright mean. Confusing the difficulties of raising kids with impossibility. Not understanding that the choices we make in life generally have consequences. (Ie, working outside the home means I don't get to have dinner with DS every night. Not working outside the home means less disposable income for things like camp, and more need to look after kids yourself.)
Jewish education and continuity is about more than the days school is in session. Camp is a large contributor to kids' overall experience. It's all part of the package. Sara Shenirer understood this when she instituted extracurricular Bnos Basya groups. If you believe in funding yeshiva educations, it follows to believe in funding camp for those who have trouble paying.
As far as kids being difficult, again, it's a matter of different priorities. Those who see building Klal Yisrael in this way as important may be more willing to support the idea of helping to make things not so difficult, towards this goal. Those who don't care if there are far fewer Jewish children born will say that parents who find childraising difficult should cease bearing children to raise.
Last edited by Isramom8 on Mon, Jul 11 2011, 2:46 pm; edited 1 time in total
I think the people who are arguing in favor of camp as a need in normal circumstances are doing themselves a disservice by making it about the mother.
IMHO if you talk about camp as something good for kids, an opportunity for them to learn and grow, something that will help them give more to the community later in life, etc (only a truly awesome camp would do all that, but I've been a part of some truly awesome programs so I know they're out there), more people will say "Oh OK I can see why that would be a good thing for the community to pay for."
Whereas if it's made out to be about helping an adult who finds life overwhelming, and not as a one-off kind of thing, people will be less sympathetic. Not just because kids are cuter and more helpless than adults (although that's part of it), but also because then it's hard to see the benefit for the community. And harder to set a limit - while there are only so many months in a year to inundate children with educational opportunities, the ways in which life could be made easier for parents are virtually infinite.
Camp is about the kids. But don't discredit the needs of the mother. A happy, healthy mother more likely raises happy, healthy, functioning, frum kids.
In essence, there is no kids' needs versus mothers' needs. There are the needs of our families.
Jewish education and continuity is about more than the days school is in session. Camp is a large contributor to kids' overall experience. It's all part of the package. Sara Shenirer understood this when she instituted extracurricular Bnos Basya groups. If you believe in funding yeshiva educations, it follows to believe in funding camp for those who have trouble paying.
As far as kids being difficult, again, it's a matter of different priorities. Those who see building Klal Yisrael in this way as important may be more willing to support the idea of helping to make things not so difficult, towards this goal. Those who don't care if there are far fewer Jewish children born will say that parents who find childraising difficult should cease bearing children to raise.
I agree with this also. The summer outlet with their friends and Rebbe is essential for their continued learning in yeshiva.
If a community and its rabbanim encourage women to have large families then they also know that camps needing funding also.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe was big on children having camp. My sons yeshiva is very very flexible when it comes to paying for camp, their motto is that no boy will be turned away and they will work out something.
Camp is about the kids. But don't discredit the needs of the mother. A happy, healthy mother more likely raises happy, healthy, functioning, frum kids.
In essence, there is no kids' needs versus mothers' needs. There are the needs of our families.
Camp is about the kids. But don't discredit the needs of the mother. A happy, healthy mother more likely raises happy, healthy, functioning, frum kids.
In essence, there is no kids' needs versus mothers' needs. There are the needs of our families.
Do you think that it is impossible for a woman who has chosen to stay at home to raise children, and therefore has accepted that she will have a lower income that she might otherwise have, to be "happy and healthy" if her children are at home with her for summer vacation?
Do you think that children who do not attend summer camp of some ilk will inevitably go off the derech, or otherwise not be happy or healthy?
Camp is about the kids. But don't discredit the needs of the mother. A happy, healthy mother more likely raises happy, healthy, functioning, frum kids.
In essence, there is no kids' needs versus mothers' needs. There are the needs of our families.
But our families' needs are unending. Just think, for instance, how many women would feel emotionally capable of having another child when they previously didn't if they had frequent cleaning help, the financial resources to cut back on hours at work or quit altogether, and a night nurse after each birth.
Where do you draw the line? If it's about the mother and helping her stay calm and happy while having a large family - why just camp? Why not minivans for mothers of large families who find it exceedingly difficult to do the grocery shopping by bus or foot? Why not cleaning help for all? Why not expect the community, not the wife, to make up any difference between the family's expenses and the husband's income?
Exactly Ora and when there are kids and adults who are dying because they have to pay exorbitant prices for life sustaining drugs I for one would rather give to pay for those drugs to pay for kids who exist rather than to help mothers have an easier life so that they can have more children (who I will be asked to support even if the mother is perfectly healthy and able to care for them).
Isramom, you seem to be projecting the feeling that mothers of large families have it so hard and need help all the time and that communities MUST help such people just so that they produce more and more children? Why? What is the halochic dictum that you are going by (sources please) that say that a person is supposed to have as many children as their bodies will produce not taking anything else into account including their emotional ability to care for these children without someone else stepping in to provide the finances for additional household our extra-household (camp) help? As far as I learned and as far as anyone I know learned, pru urvu ends with one boy and one girl (some for some reason have claimed two of each but have never shown me a source). Boy is pru, girl is revu as she is the "multiplier" being the one to give birth. After that you have fulfilled your halochic need. And there are those who say that if you have children of the same gender you fulfil the pru urvu then with having a grandchild of that missing gender. But nowhere have I ever learned an original halochic source that says you have to have a lot of kids. And certainly since the time that BC became available there was never a halochic source to state that if you have fulfiled pru urvu you should keep on going even if you will have to beg for charity to feed your children if you have a choice and not have them now.
Your constant singing the praises of large families is nice IF a couple can cope with it. One can easily say that our great grandmothers had no camp and had 10 children (if they lived) and coped quite well. Why do you say that this generation can't cope without camp? That's what big families are all about you know, the older caring for the younger and keeping them occupied. The older ones don't want to spend their lives caring for little brothers and sisters? Tough noogies. That's what big families are all about. There are rules for what big families are all about and they were always like that and you can't just break these rules and want someone else to pay for your desires.
As for camp pushing torah who are we kidding? Camp is about fun, not rebbes. Are we only talking charedi camps? What? A SAHM MO mom with six kids who wants to send her kids to some Zionist sleep away camp with no rebbes doesnt' deserve that zedoko money too? Where does it end.
And just for the record, what ever happened to parents and especially mothers teaching their kids yiddishkeit? Both boys and girls? There is so much you can learn from a parent. Daily kibbud horim, and so much more. If the issue is having the kids sit down and learn? Well hey, that argument doesnt' really hold for that mother of five kids under six that she wants to send to "camp" but can't afford. How much "learning" does a four year old do that a mommy can't do with him? We aren't exactly talking advanced gemoro here.
So maybe as Barbara wrote, a bit of reality wouldn't hurt here....mothers can't educate their kids, can't care for them without going crazy, and then what? You want someone else to give birth to them too and maybe raise them so that you can...you can what? Be pregnant and nurse yet another child who...you want to take off your hands?
We are talking two months during the summer. What's the big deal?
