Jews/non jews/converts

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:06 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

No one said it's easy, but Judaism is not about ease and comfort.

It's not about being miserable either.

Judaism is about doing what Hashem wants us to, as He conveys to us through His Torah, both written and oral.

Sometimes this is easy and sometimes it might make someone miserable. Of course the highest level is to do mitzvos with joy, including that of dying al kidush Hashem (like Rabbi Akiva and Rav Elchanan Wasserman hy"d) but it doesn't absolve those who haven't reached this level to keep all the mitzvos, including this one. Even if they are miserable.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:07 pm

Quote:

1. You probably should refer these people to qualified rabbonim or rebbetzins who have experience.

But they already have a rav, lessons every week...
So apparently there is another need. One of the girls told me she needed to talk to someone "normal" but frum anyway, not a rav, because she can't tell everything to a rav.

Quote:

2. No one said to say, "Go away, it's not for you."

Just its polite form? "Sorry we don't convert people?" but what if people want to be converted?

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3. You cannot remember something that you did not personally experience, no matter what the oral tradition in your family says.

That's playing on words for me, sorry. I'll say it again, English is my 3rd language, let's talk in French if my mistakes offend you.

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But when Yiddishkeit and our happiness clash, we are required to follow Yiddishkeit, not our feelings.

I agree, but there's a way to do things.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:10 pm

mali wrote:

Ruchel, what makes you think you're better than Chazal? (talk about oral law).

You have huge problems. What makes you think I can send away people who have been accepted by the Consistoire?
As for the Portuguese girl, it was a matter of helping someone desperate and with no way of knowing if a beis din would accept her or not (although if they don't accept her, I wonder who they will accept).

People have problems with feelings on this board...

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:11 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

No one said it's easy, but Judaism is not about ease and comfort.

It's not about being miserable either.

I agree. I still don't see your point though.

↑ shalhevet ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:11 pm

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

But when Yiddishkeit and our happiness clash, we are required to follow Yiddishkeit, not our feelings.

I agree, but there's a way to do things.

What do you mean here? Not die al kiddush Hashem if it makes us miserable? shock

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:14 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

Quote:

But when Yiddishkeit and our happiness clash, we are required to follow Yiddishkeit, not our feelings.

I agree, but there's a way to do things.

What do you mean here? Not die al kiddush Hashem if it makes us miserable? shock

Oy, ok I'll stop there. I was saying just the contrary, and here I wasn't talking about that. It must be a cultural or language barrier, I don't know.

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:15 pm

mummyof6 wrote:

Ruchel wrote:

People have problems with feelings on this board...

And some people have problems putting aside their feelings when halacha obligates us to.

I agree.
I still prefer being around the second kind, they're less scary.

↑ mali ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:34 pm

Ruchel wrote:

I'm not even mentioning the hillul hashem caused by refusing to help someone who needs it., but we will never agree so it's not useful or interesting to go on. As I said, it's all cultural.

1. you can help her and listen to her, yet, at the same time discourage her from converting.
2. what's cultural? I didn't know halacha changes according to location Confused

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 4:57 pm

Quote:

1. you can help her and listen to her, yet, at the same time discourage her from converting.

Why would I if she wants it, and if I think she would make a great Jew? She has no Jew around her, but it's like coming naturally to her, she is more dedicated that many Jews I know (unfortunately), she is doubling a grade because she wouldn't break shabbes for an exam!

Should I lie to her and say I don't think she is made for that? If she's not made for that, few Jews are unfortunately... and I don't want to lie either. I tell people who convert out of love that to me it is only a cope out so their husband has Jewish children, I can tell you I don't have only nice answers!! But when it comes from the heart and soul, I'm not going to lie.

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2. what's cultural? I didn't know halacha changes according to location

Halacha doesn't change. But for example sending away converts is easier if you live in a huge community than in a small one, if your family is huge than if it would have been huge without the "help" of Hitler, and so on. Even sending away people who convert for marriage is hard in my circles because we feel (sorry!) that every "gained" Jew compensates for a "lost" one during Shoah or assimilation, but I already force myself to at least warn them very clearly about the fact that such conversion is problematic - although many rabbis will accept them anyway, to save the branch.

Mommy912 ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:03 pm

Not only does a non-Jew not get a mitzva for keeping Shabboss, they are in fact forbidden to keep it. People who are on the way to serious conversion are generally aware of this, and will make sure to be Mechalel Shabboss.
There is really no point in her missing an exam on Shabboss.
Shabboss is a special gift from Hashem to the Jews.

↑ mali ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:03 pm

Ruchel wrote:

One of the girls told me she needed to talk to someone "normal" but frum anyway, not a rav, because she can't tell everything to a rav.

I hope she realizes judaism is a bit "scarier" (you said that) than her wonderful friend (who confuses halacha and feeling) puts it. don't tell her judaism is rosy and compromising. tell her it's restricting and demanding. FOR HER SAKE!!
let's get this straight: it's wonderful to keep mitzvot and have a full understanding of the beauty and the spirituality in keeping them. (I think that's what you're trying to get across, Ruchel.) However, the obligation of keeping mitzvot exists regardless of whether we understand them, like them, or see the beauty in them.
potential converts tend to see the spirituality in judaism, and there's plenty of that. they tend to overlook the hard part of being jewish. it is our role to point it out to them before they take that fateful step.
once someone has converted, the torah tells us she is a jew just like any other jew. and we know her soul was at matan torah together with the rest of the jewish souls. we also have an additional commandment to love converts.
but let's not confuse before and after.

↑ mali ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 5:55 pm

GR wrote:

You are not allowed to teach a non-Jew Torah to begin with. So a Rav must be consulted anyway, and asked this specific question.

The halachah is that a Jew studies all aspects of Torah whether they are of practical relevance to him or not — just for the sake of being immersed in Torah. The Ben Noach studies Torah to know and to understand his path. (In a footnote, the Rebbe mentions that according to the Meiri, most of the Torah is of concern to a Ben Noach.)

So, GR, why do you think a [gentile] isn't allowed to learn Torah?

↑ gryp ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:00 pm

Its no secret that there is a huge controversy about schools accepting non-Jewish kids, because (I was under the impression) we are not allowed to teach them Torah. ("Torah" here referring to what kids learn in school: Alef Bais, Shabbos, etc.)

↑ Ruchel ↓

Tue, Jun 27 2006, 6:49 pm

Mommy912 wrote:

I told her it's not her mitsva.
Anyway, some rabbis make future converts keep shabbes.