neshama carlebach | Imamother

↑ Motek ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:03 am

someone told my husband that when he was on shlichus in Yorba Linda (last bastion of hippiedom), one of Shechter's closest people told him that after Shechter went to the Rebbe for dollars, he confided in this close follower that maybe it's time to go back to halacha ...

the Rebbe once asked A. Shemtov how Shechter was doing (being that Shechter was in Phila.) and Shemtov didn't exactly know .. and the Rebbe said:I mean in parnasa

A. Shemtov said he didn't know

the Rebbe said: you call yourself a friend and you don't know how he's doing in parnasa?

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:18 am

Quote:

he said that d'oraisa a man is not even allowed to have thoughts let alone touch.

can he provide sources, pls?

B/c I know from a reliable orthodox local person here that shaking hands for business is allowed.

I know if a Rebbetzen who told me she always did, and now she accepted upon herself a humra not to.

↑ Tefila ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:55 am

Quote:

B/c I know from a reliable orthodox local person here that shaking hands for business is allowed

Fy you are right there is definatley heterim for that..... this I know but chassidim do not rely on that heter

Also for a women shaking hands is not the same if any as a man shaking. But again out of tznius, we still try not to do it!!

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:19 am

Quote:

Fy you are right there is definatley heterim for that

ah, but as far as I know, it's not a heter to shake,
it's humra not to shake

this is what I want to find out for sure, b/c once in a while(abot once in 2 yrs) I end up in intersting situations, and heteer or humra make a big difference to me.

↑ 1stimer

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:42 pm

Right, I spoke to hubby and he said he will try and find out where the teshuva is. (also we were remembering that r' moshe has three d'oraisas with touching, one of which is nidda, one is lo tikrovu and not sure of the third one)

He also said that r' elchanan wasserman said regarding a man shaking a woman's hand for business that it is ossur and yeharag v'al yaavar (one of the three cardinal sins that we must be killed for rather than transgress)! His chavrusa, r' leib gurwitz (I think it was r' leib gurwitz - I'll double check this and post back if it wasn't) disagreed with him - he said it is ossur but not yeharag v'al yaavar. However they both agreed it was completely ossur.

The question I had, which hubby will try and find out answer to tomorrow, is: is it also ossur for a woman to shake a man's hand for business (I'm assuming that it is a non-jew's hand)?

The heter you were given, was it just a non-jew's hand (as opposed to jew's hand)?

will try to post answers when we get them.

↑ hadasa ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 1:51 pm

Whatever Heterim I have heard for shaking hands were all based on the assumption that shaking hands in the business world is not begeder Chibah I.e. not a sign of affection. This in no way implies a Heter for touching which does express affection. I think one would be hard pressed to find a Heter for hugging and kissing based on these premises. Perhaps there is a different Heter for that, but I've never heard of it. I have read in several places that touching that expresses affection is included in Gluy Arayos.

rydys

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:00 pm

Shaking hands with a man is certainly a heter. I'm in that situation daily as a doctor and have found that if I just smile and say "sorry, I don't shake. It a religious thing", the person usually says OK and moves on. Sometimes the person asks why and I explain that in Judaism men and women don't touch unless they are married and that is usually the end of the conversation. One time I was interviewing for a position that I really wanted and decided to rely on the heter so I shook the man's hand--and a minute later he apologized for not remembering that Jewish women don't shake! Never be afraid to stand up for halacha. People will respect you for it.

BTW--I haven't read through all 13 pages of this thread, but I went and looked at the pictures and website of Neshama Carlebach posted on page 2. I don't know what happened with her father or why he did what he did, although I'm sure he had his reasons well thought out. However, what I find very sad is how "non jewish" his daughter looks. Shlomo Carlbach kept his beard and payos and always looked Jewish. If I came across this website without knowing who she is, I'd think she was one of the many chiloni Israeli's trying to mimic american singers. I'm curious what will happen with _her_ children who will be one generation further from Yeshiva.

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:04 pm

Quote:

One time I was interviewing for a position that I really wanted and decided to rely on the heter so I shook the man's hand--and a minute later he apologized for not remembering that Jewish women don't shake!

truly amazing, the people you find in this world...

I have embarrassed a lot of people in the past few years with "Sorry, I dont shake" but I always explain so they arent left with a bad feeling. somehow as im explaining, the whole room gets quiet and I end up talking to a crowd...

↑ ForeverYoung
Guest

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 10:19 pm

wow, thanks for the input, everybody.

WhatI heard so far is what Hadasa wrote:

Quote:

Whatever Heterim I have heard for shaking hands were all based on the assumption that shaking hands in the business world is not begeder Chibah I.e. not a sign of affection.

so, pls, everybody, if you can specify your sources.

it'snot like I have a constant problem - I work from home - but things come up once in a while.

↑ Tefila ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:37 pm

Just went to her site. Low cut cleavage, and if you click on one of her photos you will see her band I think (almost positive her fam doesn't look like that) hugging her! shock

This is my point when it's emotion alone no matter how spiritual it cannot be passed down generation to generation. Only Torah directives that are PRACTICED and not in emotion can be passed down incl in Tznius!!!!!!!
I do not believe that this is loshon hora since, I would want to be informed of her hashkafas if I was even thinking about going to her concerts!!!!!!!!!!

↑ happyduck ↓

Mon, Jan 31 2005, 11:45 pm

freilich wrote:

I do not believe that this is loshon hora since, I would want to be informed of her hashkafas if I was even thinking about going to her concerts!!!!!!!!!!

As apparently you need to explain why you do not think this is LH, then post the link and let people decide. Talking about a person is LH. There is no purpose to these comments being here at alll. As she has a website, people can decide for themselves.

↑ happyduck

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 11:08 am

I juust have to wonder, and yes I know this is a totally different case, but some of the pictures hat go up on my website are from before I was married and my hair is not covered. What would happen if people saw the site and started talking openly about the fact I did not cover properly? Whatever happened to being dan le'caf zechus? Now in this case, I realize there is very little to try to look favourably on, but it just seems that on this website we often take something we have seen or done and tear it to shreds like a bunch of old yentes. This does not seem to be a way in which bas torahs should behave. If there is something we do not like, or feel is highly inappropriate (and I agree that for many of us Neshamah Carlebach might be one of them) then we just avoid the subject matter. Since when is the frum attitude that we must go talk openly about the topic?

I too have said my piece frequently. In my youth she was a friend. I hate to see anyone on the recieving end of such treatment, but more so a friend.

For the record I would certainly never call her, her sister or her mother "heimish" or any other such word. But there must be a place in this world for those who re shomer shabat and kashrut.

Please see my other post.

Batsheva

Tue, Feb 01 2005, 9:09 pm

I haven't read all 12 pages(woah) on this topic, I got the jist of it though.
let me tell you something personally. I am an ex-Carlebachian. I lived in israel for many years and was very involved in the whole thing.my two roomates where from "the moshav"- and I am still close with one of them -whose father was and still is one of the biggest "chasid's" and was one of the founders of the moshav. I spent shabbosim there, I heard and played the music and more........I was there. I understand the problems of His Hashkofa and the problems with Neshama's musical career, kol isha, tzinus etc.... but she is still a daughter of the king (the Aibishter) and I think it is not her fault that she is doing what she is doing. I have unfortunately said to much loshon hara about Reb Shlomo after doing tshuva (becoming more frum) and being on that gung ho, high in the cloud la-la land holier than thou attitude. I took it upon myself last year to stop putting him down. Hashem is taking care of him now, and I think it is our responsibilty as frum women, as wives, as mothers, sisters,and friends to be tru living examples according to halacho( and no Rav can paskin certain behaviors that even very very modern Orthodox know are wrong) of how a Bas Yisroel and Princessof the King should be. I am actually a musician and cut an album a number of years ago(post tshuva- anyone hear of "the light peddlers band" and I have been contemplating for years if I should contact Neshama and try to do something ( I don't know what bu t for sure in a very darchei noamdike way) to convince her of her great potential as a female musician foe females only.
what do you think??? how can we help her?