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Neshama carlebach

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↑ Tefila ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:20 am

If Rav Sheinberg was a women Rolling Eyes

and acted in the same fashion. If Rav Sheinberg was Carlebach if if if
then yes as someone who is growing I will ask, not daragatorly..... but how come??

I think and believe we have a chiyuv to ask. Chassidim who are close to their Rebbe always asked conc diff things and even though they trusted they still wanted to know why and in most part they were answered!

Hashem is a diff story! However even then thru pain and suffering the Lubavitcher Rebbe says one should ask and not remain apathetic...... this shows a closeness.

↑ gryp ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:25 am

Quote:

I am not sure what the difference is in all honesty. Most thesorauses list them as synonyms.

the simple difference between "curiousity" and "interest" is that curiousity has no purpose to it, while when someone has an interest there is usually a reason why.

Quote:

Right, but see, that is the difference. No one is asking you to arrange a concert. I agree if you are doing somthing active 100% you need to get all the answers and go to your own rav. If you are doing something passive, not listening, why the need? If you got the answers and decided to do something passive (ie, not listening) you do not need to go around telling everyone you got it. LEt people ask for themselves

we are not being asked to arrange a concert, no. but she is asking people to come to her concerts or to buy her music. if she wants to get other people involved in her activities, she should say who gave her the heter.
why hasnt she already publicly said which Rav she asked? why is it such a big mystery? or maybe she has announced it and I didnt hear it.

if I found treifus in a famous restaurant I went to, I shouldnt tell anyone? I shouldnt make a big deal out of it? I should just let people ask their own Rav? or I should tell my story so others could be careful about it.

Quote:

Further, if I was by someone who served something with a hechsher I did not know, I would just not eat it. I would not mention it at the shabbos table!

how would you know if the hechsher is not good if lets say, the ingredient was mixed into a recipe? that is the difference between us: I would not eat in someones house I dont trust in the first place. if I happened to see something at my friends house that I dont trust, later after the meal, I simply would say, privately of course, "do you know not everyone keeps this hechsher?" and I would secretly tell my family if they were there not to eat it.

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You can go to your Rov and ask if its okay for you! You don't need to know where they got ther heter... you only need to know how to deal with it personally. So ask your own Rav

sara- not every single step in life works like that. for example if I see a restaraunt with a hechsher only by the OU, it usually means I cant eat there. there is no need to ask my Rav about that.
but can you imagine if a restaraunt did not announce who gives their hechsher and every single person who wanted to eat there had to go ask their Rav or the restaurant owner?

this thread for me has nothing to do with lashan hara or chutzpah. its a simple matter of who gives the heter, same as I would want to know for any other halacha matter. I have no reason or need to attack the carlebachs or to speak lashan hara about them. as you can see, I am not the one who started this conversation, and all I have said is that I will not go to their concerts or buy their music. that is what I have decided for myself.

the way you decide whos kashrus to trust and whos not to trust, depends on your own JUDGEMENT. you must judge people, and please, dont give me the speech about judging, everyone judges and has to judge in order to lead a normal life. if it were a strangers house in a strange community that I might be eating in, I would call one person from the community who I know I can trust and ask what kind of standards she keeps. I would not ask the person directly because I would not want to make her feel bad or seem holier-than-thou if she keeps lower standards. if it is someone I know, I see the way she behaves on the street and the way she dresses, and what kind of hashkafas she has, and then I know. that is how I decide. you may have a different way which is good for you.

↑ happyduck ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:39 am

I did not say who was attacking.. My reply that there were those who were. Attached are some instances where things sounded somewhat like tongue in cheek replies or worse yet blatant meanness or badmouthing. THe names are left off. IF yo uwant ot know who said what yo ucan go back and look. Personally I just read back through the thread without looking at who said what so that I shouldn't know.

Quote:

The same one her father got to shake women's hands and kiss their cheeks onstage...

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Maybe he was one of the hidden Tzaddikim, but had to be really hidden! And his daughters too are hidden Tzaddikim that's why they can do anything .....

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Are you reffering to the fact that Carlebach went off the derech in the end?

um, again, that is according you one person. Or even many people. We do not know what HKB"H thinks about what he did.

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Fine but do I support or go to someone's whose philosophy that 'seems' everything against I was taught!

However he did it, I presume the philosophy of kiruv itself is not against everything you were taught. Again, actions we might disagree with, but philosophy?

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Kol Isha is Kol isha, and my non-chadisish, and actually VERY litvish husband wouldn't even listen to recording, which is sort of not really assur.

the litvish man I know do not listen to kol isha!!!!!!

But no orthodox man, even more so a Rav, would go for Live Kol Isha.

Just for the record, yes there are. Neshama generally (At least so far as I have seen) uses a wireless mike. There are those rabonim who say it is not considered her voice if it is being projected through artificial means. No, I will be honest, I do not have a source for this but I know my husband got this answer from his Rosh Yeshiva when we were in a position where such a situation could not be avoided for shalom bayis reasons.

Quote:

he deviated from the Derech

From what oyu see as the derech. MAybe not from what Hashem sees as the derech. The Cohen had ot make himself tamei so as to make other people tahor. Before you jump on me, I am not comparing Carlebach to the cohen gadol, merely pointing out that things like this have happened before.

Quote:

I also said that in my experience frum men do not listen to kol isha no matter how well hidden, and some listen to recordings if exposed to it, but wouldn't go ahead and knowlingly turn on a tape w. a woman singing (with exeption of some baalei teshuva who have strong connection to a song)

Hw about bruria in the gemarah? Yes she spoke and not sang so there is a big difference, but I am just pojnting out that many of the issues are the same. You also mention some exceptions... why coudl she not have worked together with a rav to learn if she fell int oone of those catagories?

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Yes there is a Carlebach movement, more like a cult really and a joke.

Blatant LH about a whole group of people! THere are those who say the same thing of Lubavitch... one would never be tolerated here so why is the other okay?

Quote:

Some of Carlebach's baaley teshuva beame un-frum again as soon as the inspiration of the song was replaced by realisation that there is more then singing to Judaism

do people think that no one who becomes frum through lubavitch or aish or or somayach never again go off the derech? If so, please let me know and I will introduce you some who did.

↑ zuncompany ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:39 am

you are not personally being ask to though. Thats the thing. So email her if you really want to know. I do not think its interest if you want to seperate the two cause I don't see how knowing will change YOU. You will not buy it or listen. Than it just becomes plain old out curiosity and LH. RG- there is also a difference between asking one person quietly whom you trust and asking the whole community. So pm happyduck... don't make it a public thing.

TAKE THE FAMILY OUT OF THE PICTURE! By specifically bringing them into this you are speaking LH. LH can come from good or bad. You might really be interested, but that doesn't mean it doesn't become LH. Start a thread- kol isha and issues surrounding it. Discussing singing in front of men, etc... however take the name out of the picture!

Sara

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:41 am

I do not know who Rav Scheinberg is, but

I would do research and cross-reference with my Rav to make sure that rumors did not get confused w/ facts
(like during the indian hair problems)

↑ Tefila ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:44 am

Quote:

Hw about bruria in the gemarah? Yes she spoke and not sang so there is a big difference, but I am just pojnting out that many of the issues are the same.

If I remember learning correctly both Bruriah and Devorah hanavuah spoke thru a mechitza of some sort..... maybe they could've got a heter to do otherwise. But they chose not to.... I wonder why?

↑ happyduck ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:44 am

Quote:

that is the difference between us: I would not eat in someones house I dont trust in the first place. if I happened to see something at my friends house that I dont trust, later after the meal, I simply would say, privately of course, "do you know not everyone keeps this hechsher?" and I would secretly tell my family if they were there not to eat it.

Yes I suppose that is the difference between us then isn't it? I would go to my rav first and ask about the hechsher and find out if there was a reason she might think it was ok. Then I would go to her and say, I do not eat it, can you please let me know if you are using it so I can cautious about it. I would say that same thingto my family.

↑ happyduck ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:45 am

freilich wrote:

Quote:

Hw about bruria in the gemarah? Yes she spoke and not sang so there is a big difference, but I am just pojnting out that many of the issues are the same.

If I remember learning correctly both Bruriah and Devorah hanavuah spoke thru a mechitza of some sort..... maybe they could've got a heter to do otherwise. But they chose not to.... I wonder why?

sign this was written orriginaly about maybe not being able ot see clearly. That is what it meant.

↑ happyduck ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 9:48 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

I do not know who Rav Scheinberg is, but

What? He is only one of the biggest gedolai hador today??? He is the posek for my husbands yeshiva. We follow his rulings and dh's rosh yeshiva goes ot him for posekim and with shailas. How could you not know who he is and follow every single thing he sais???

What? How could I possible be so self rightous that my Rav is the right one? Hmmm...

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:22 am

Oh, come on!!!

As a matter of fact, I DO NOT KNOW WHO HE IS!!!!

So do I look stupid to you? or not frum? or both?

the fact is that I have terrible memory for names & as a BT have to learn so many of them.

Yes, I will double check with my Rav, even if I risk looking stupid.

Besides, there is a difference betw. my neighbor saiyng "R so&so said" and my Rav saying the same thing.

↑ gryp ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:27 am

lets not kid ourselves. we know what the derech is and we can tell when someone deviates from it. Hashem tells us what to do and what not to do.
when someone does something strange, it glares at us in the face. which is why and how rumors start in the first place. all of those abovementioned rumors I have heard plus many more. until an eyewitness confirms them for me, it is still just a rumor, but controversial enough that I dont trust it.

this is how rumors grow- people pass on things they hear or half-hear. so I would really like to know the truth about it. because one day someone important (my kids, someone becoming frum,...) will ask me and I would like to tell them facts. so Sara, I do have a reason to know the truth, and a right to as well. it is not just curiousity or lashan hara that I enjoy so much getting into...

I dont know who R. Scheinberg is either. maybe I have heard his name once.

Quote:

Then I would go to her and say, I do not eat it, can you please let me know if you are using it so I can cautious about it.

this is another situation than the one you presented before. last time you said it was already at the shabbos table, and now its before shabbos.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:32 am

my rant about kol isha is kol isha was a responce to the statement that

Quote:

some non-chassidisher rabbonim give heter for such

,
which also is the perfect example how people take things out of contxt and mis-read them.

Besides, many nice things were said here too, and halachically supportive.

why choose to ignore them? why concentrate on negative?

↑ yehudis ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:34 am

FY -- Rabbi Scheinberg is the Rosh Yeshiva or Torah Ore in Yerushalayim. He is very well known. He is the one who wears many pairs of tzitzis. People come to him for brachos. (We did too.) There is a book called Heart to Heart, based on Rabbi Scheinberg's shiurim for women, with Q & A.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:35 am

thanks

↑ zuncompany ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:41 am

RG- do it privately... by passing on rumors, it is loshon hara... even by saying in such a public forum is this and this true. I try to ignore those rumors- just cause it is glaring you in the face doesn't make it any less loshon hara.

I have that book! Someone gave it to us when we got married!

Sara

↑ gryp ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:47 am

well, then, if anyone has been an eyewitness to these situations, can you please PM me?

and what does it mean when a carlebach shul says "this week Neshama is going to be leading the Fri nite prayers" ?

↑ happyduck ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 10:47 am

I quit. You want to take everything I have said out of context go ahead. Why was I focusing on the negative? Becuase you asked for example. I answerd you, and you tell me I am focusing on the negative.

Either example was at theshabbos table. In the latte,r I meant I saw it once and mentioned it efore I would ever go there again.

Come on. This thread was not about this. LEts leave it at, do what you discuss with your rav. YOUR RAV. And no, we may not know the derech. IF you saw me shake hands with my clients, and eating with them (my own food but you may not know that) yo uwould think I was off the derech as well. Write what you want.

↑ Motek ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 2:46 pm

some misc. comments:

Quote:

Shabsai Tzvi also brought alot closer to Torah you know.....
And so did Dr Laura Schlesinger who now has backed out of her converting orthodox status.

should we be comparing Jews of our time, whom we don't know personally, to these individuals? I think not

Quote:

does it say he held her? touched her? No it meant he danced in front of the kallah as it says you are meant to rejoice infront of the chosson and kallah.

Gemara Kesubos 17a "R. Aha took her [the kalla] on his shoulder and danced [with her]. The Rabbis said to him: May we [also] do it? He said to them: If they are on you like a beam (I.e. it's like having a piece of wood on your shoulders], [then it is] all right. and if not, [you may] not.

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I am not aware of any obligation for a public figure to explain his or her actions.

not only well-known public figures, but ALL OF US are obligated to "v'hiyisem nikiyim" - to be "clean," I.e. innocent

it is forbidden for anybody to do things that give other people the impression that you are doing something wrong

it is not proper to say, well they should be judging me favorably. That's THEIR obligation, while YOUR obligation is to act in a way that doesn't make people think you are doing an aveira

(though sometimes circumstances arise in which your actions may be permissible though they look questionable to others)

Quote:

all I said is I would never go to a neshama concert and I would never buy her music, and that is my right until I see which Rav gave her heterim so I can see if I go by him.

I agree with this response:

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You can go to your Rov and ask if its okay for you! You don't need to know where they got ther heter

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R. Eliashev is an authority figure to the Jews

an authority figure to SOME Jews, just as Rav Scheinberg is, as well as others

Quote:

but can you imagine if a restaraunt did not announce who gives their hechsher and every single person who wanted to eat there had to go ask their Rav or the restaurant owner?

I don't think this works as an analogy to the concert because concerts (and books and music) in general, in the frum world, do not have hechsherim (though here and there you hear about bans on certain ones)

if a person doesn't know whether he/she is halachically allowed to attend a concert, they can ask a shaila and know, once for all, whether concerts are permissible, whether male only, female, etc.

restaurants have hundreds of variables and there isn't one answer for restaurants in general

↑ roza ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 3:04 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

my rant about kol isha is kol isha was a responce to the statement that

Quote:

some non-chassidisher rabbonim give heter for such

,
which also is the perfect example how people take things out of contxt and mis-read them.

ok, ok I am sorry embarrassed

- I should of say NON-CHAREDI rabbonim- is it better now? Very Happy

I don't think the definition of treifus in food can apply in the same way to music. is her music treif or kosher or pareve or under non-chassidisher hashgacha or all the above? Speechless

or we just disscussing the level of observance of the singer? yes, may be she is not frum, but if she will make a move to a right direction and make a concert for women only- then why not to support her? is her music THAT treif?

↑ roza ↓

Tue, Jan 25 2005, 3:08 pm

sorry, motek - I missed your post and repeat the same idea about food-music. interesting how we think Wink

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