neshama carlebach | Imamother

↑ Tefila ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 4:32 pm

Super he deviated from the Derech I am not G-D only He can judge how much. But it was enough for alot of raised eyebrows etc. This is a fact quite well known unfortunatley.

Shabsai Tzvi also brought alot closer to Torah you know.....
And so did Dr Laura Schlesinger who now has backed out of her converting orthodox status.

This is anyway not about him, but about his daughter does one support a person whose hashkafas are questionable? Maybe Rabbonim should make a public announcement it's ok she has a reliable heter and it's a mitzvah to go.....

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 4:59 pm

Quote:

And you think that your emotions are on a higher level than the Carlebachs'?

I explisitly sayid that my emotions are applicable to me only and not to others.

I also said that in my experience frum men do not listen to kol isha no matter how well hidden, and some listen to recordings if exposed to it, but wouldn't go ahead and knowlingly turn on a tape w. a woman singing (with exeption of some baalei teshuva who have strong connection to a song)

I also asked which Rav gave a heter for publick singing to that other singer mentioned

As far as Neshama Carlebach's feelings go, she is not a Rav either, so who sais we can pasken by her?

Again, I do not claim to be an expert, I'm sharing my experience and thoughts. And actions I will take based on them.

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 5:24 pm

I'm just wondering why would a woman look for a heter to sing in front of men, anyway?

I understand if the producer or recorder is a man and she needs him for putting out tapes, etc, but how does that lead to a heter to singing in front of a mixed audience? why would someone want that heter to begin with?

sarahd ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 5:52 pm

I think she wanted that heter so she can sing as a kiruv tool. I can understand women wanting a heter for that reason. If you happen to be at a kiruv event where there are men as well as women, you might want to be able to sing along. I have been at such events, and it's very difficult to refrain from singing, especially when the girls you with keep asking you to sing and you can see that it would create a great ruach. (There were some heterim, I.e. sing as a group so your individual voice isn't discernible, but I personally never felt comfortable with them.)

Rivka ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 7:34 pm

Quote:

And going back to the rabbi from the gemara -- how do you explain the fact that he danced with the kalla?

does it say he held her? touched her? No it meant he danced in front of the kallah as it says you are meant to rejoice infront of the chosson and kallah.
Big difference to have a woman either side of you arm in arm.
Yes there is a Carlebach movement, more like a cult really and a joke.
Someone said they loved his music and went to see him in concert but was put off when they saw him kiss women and was linked arm in arm with a woman. Kiruv is not about breaking the rules, coz how can that show anyone about what you believe in. It's just hypocritical. carlebach let him RIP might have made good music but I would not go so far to say he was a hidden tzadik and all that. His daughter Neshama might have a nice name, but singing in front of men live for a Jewish girl is not right. Again she might have a great voice and sing great songs, but does that make her a saint?
And I don't believe she does it for kiruv and don't kid yourself about it either, she does it for the same reasons any singer does it.

↑ roza ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 7:49 pm

personaly I would not go to mixed event where the woman sings infront of men and as someone mentioned will not enjoy such a concert (even if the event is for women but men are in the band as mentioned in the first post), I just don't judge her for doing that. but I would listen to her music over internet. ( I don't buy music 8) )

↑ yehudis ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 8:31 pm

Rivka wrote:

Quote:

And going back to the rabbi from the gemara -- how do you explain the fact that he danced with the kalla?

does it say he held her? touched her?

Yes, he touched her! That's my point.

And I don't understand why you speak so negatively about a whole group of people in public. I've met several people who consider themselves Rabbi Carlebach's followers. They are very religious.

And how do you know what Neshama Carlebach's motivation is? That's between her and Hashem.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 9:06 pm

I had a very interesting conversation w/ my husband...

1. Some of Carlebach's baaley teshuva beame un-frum again as soon as the inspiration of the song was replaced by realisation that there is more then singing to Judaism

2. we don't really know what really happend to R Shlomo - how did he go off - (somebody did mention negia here)

3. Carlebach's followers - as far as I know, all they really do is daven with his negunim. There are no Halachos "al pi Rav Carlebach" I do sincerely hope that they don't go around kissing women & holding their hands.

4. The prohibition of Kol Isha is on men. If women sing - close your ears & turn away
(Just like the Jews did at the yam suf, when Miriam & women sang Shira & danced)

I am not sure what is the halacha as far as a woman knowingly coming to sing at a place where she knows men will come to listen davka to her

5. kiruv

Quote:

b4 I became frum, I had a lot of respect for the orthodox people, and looked down upon the reform/ conservative. Why? B/c orthodox people didn't bent the Torah around the sircomstances. They did what they preached & Listened to H' in all of their ways!!

I was once at a seminar, organized by reform in the winter. There were a rav & a rebetzen. Rav wore a kipa to match his shirt (all women appreciated his taste) & his Rebbetxen wore very comfortable pants and no wig, which met our approval too.

However, on Shabbos, I put on a skirt and was sure that the rebbetsen will put on a skirt & a scarf of some sort. People teased me, but I was ready to greet the holy Shabbos. Guess what!!! the rebetzen still wore her pants & did not bother to cover her hair!!! - I had more respect for Shabbos than she did. All my admiration had dissapeared in 1/2 of a second.

No, you will not gain converts via transgressing halacha!!!!

All you will get is "Oh, they're just like us! Why, I don't even need to change!!"

↑ Tefila ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 9:50 pm

Quote:

And how do you know what Neshama Carlebach's motivation is? That's between her and Hashem.

Yehudis your right but someone can't go ahead and do something we are taught is wrong publicly, and not explain herself publicly it causes 'moras aiyin.
And more besides from the pics in the newspaper following her performance here, her tznius clothes wise was questionable but again your right maybe there's a heter for that too.

My husband said one can get a heter for almost everything, in the Torah, I mean maybe we should all rely on heterim for everything and then wonder how we'll grow spiritually?!!!

and

Quote:

All you will get is "Oh, they're just like us! Why, I don't even need to change!!"

Wow fy you said it all....... in a nutshell Very Happy

Last edited by Tefila on Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

↑ happyduck ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 9:54 pm

Wow has this thread turned into a whopping load of loshon harah. Maybe it should be ended now before it gets any worse? We are never in a position to judge other people. Only HKB"H can do that. He alone knows their motivation and if they have gone to any rabonim of their own.

As someone who knew both Carlebach girls as well as their parents, I have to say that sweeter and more heiligeh neshomas you never knew. People who went out of their way to help every single neshomah with which they came into contact.

Refering to someone who, whether we agree with them or not, is trying to do what they think is right - especially one who has left such a lasting impression on the kiruv momement (and don't kid yourself, I know tens of people alone who would not be frum were it not for Carlebach), refering to what has followed them as a JOKE is just inappropriate.

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:00 pm

Happy,
I have an impression tath there are 2 carlebch movements- frum and not frum.
Probably the Joke comment was about the 2nd one

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:00 pm

Quote:

No, you will not gain converts via transgressing halacha!!!!
All you will get is "Oh, they're just like us! Why, I don't even need to change!!"

FY, I was trying to say something along these lines but you beat me to it Very Happy

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:02 pm

Freilich, RG,

Smile

've been there, 've done that!!! Confused

↑ happyduck ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:02 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

Happy,
I have an impression tath there are 2 carlebch movements- frum and not frum.
Probably the Joke comment was about the 2nd one

Honestly? I am not so sure it matters. I think it is all one and the same... just different aspects of the whole.

↑ gryp ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:03 pm

and how well you explained it, because some people I have seen just dont get it... Rolling Eyes

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:04 pm

I think it does,
Just singing that doesn't lead to action, will not lead anywhere,
however,
avoda enhanced by singing will hepl people come closer to H'

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:05 pm

RG,
feel free to pass it on! Smile

↑ happyduck ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:07 pm

ForeverYoung wrote:

I think it does,
Just singing that doesn't lead to action, will not lead anywhere,
however,
avoda enhanced by singing will hepl people come closer to H'

No question. But I still think that they are just flip sides of the same thing.

↑ zuncompany ↓

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:16 pm

thank you happyduck! I was just about to speak up. I kept starting and one of my boys would need me.

sara

↑ ForeverYoung ↓
Guest

Mon, Jan 24 2005, 10:21 pm

Disagree!!!!

talk and inspiration that do not lead to action are pretty much worthless.

What good are zemiros sand by mehalelim shabbos eating treif and thinking that they're very spiritual b/c they sing?

Pls note: I critisize only 1 selected behavior, not the entire Carlebach fan population)

Good nithg, shall cont. tomorrow!! Wink