Shmiras Halashon between teachers about preschool students

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amother ↓

Tue, Oct 06 2009, 5:55 pm

A younger relative of mine recently started teaching in the same school as I do. It's helpful to both of us to discuss the students that we both see at different times of the day. We are talking about students l'toeles, but we want to be careful about shmiras halashon. We've done a little looking, but haven't found any sources particularly addressed to classroom teachers. Has anyone learned more about this, and have some guidelines for us?

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Oct 06 2009, 5:57 pm

There are 7 conditions to be met for toeles, students are the same as anyone else.

ShakleeMom ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:26 pm

amother wrote:

There are 7 conditions to be met for toeles, students are the same as anyone else.

can u list them? I'd like to hang in in the OT center that I take my dd to. There's lots of talk there which I feel is shameful, not for toeles, and downright illegal.

imasinger

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:38 pm

SEFER CHOFETZ CHAIM – Laws of Loshon Hora 10:1-2

Earlier in this volume, we referred to 7 conditions which must be fulfilled before one is permitted to relate loshon hora l’toeles, for a constructive purpose. These are

1. One must be absolutely certain that the information is accurate. Either one had to have witnessed the incident himself, or he investigated the report and found it to be accurate. If one has second-hand negative information which he wishes to relate for a constructive purpose, he must make it clear that his words are based on hearsay

2. One must think the matter through and be sure that a wrong has actually been committed. Sometimes, what one may think is a misdeed may in fact be permitted by halachah. One must be certain that his information and his interpretation of the information are correct before the information can be related.

3. One must first approach the wrongdoer and attempt to persuade him to rectify his behavior. For example: A storekeeper was seen cheating a customer. The first step would be to speak to the storekeeper and try to persuade him to return the money. Only after this fails should one consider informing the customer that he was cheated

4. One is not permitted to exaggerate in any way. This can be especially difficult in a situation where one is relating information regarding an emotional issue.

5. One’s intention must be solely to help the person who is being victimized. If one harbors any ill will toward the subject of the report, then he is not permitted to relate it for a constructive reason. (Of course, one should make every effort to rid oneself of such ill will.) For example, for a storekeeper to tell a potential customer about his competitor’s wrongdoing would have the likely effect of drawing this customer into his own store. In that case, the discussion would be forbidden. In a case where one has constructive negative information to relate but feels that he has a personal interest in the matter, it would be advisable for him to consult a rav (rabbi).

6. If one can effect the same result without speaking loshon hora, then he must use that option. If one wants to warn a friend not to shop in a certain store because of the proprietor’s dishonesty, and there is a way to convince him to shop elsewhere without speaking badly of the proprietor, then that option must be used.

7. One is not allowed to convey the information if this will result in the subject suffering a greater loss than the halachah allows.

↑ ShakleeMom ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:40 pm

Wow. I'd like to see how someone can professionally convert this to a teacher's version.

Atali ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:42 pm

I learned that it is not considered lashon hara (as a general rule) to discuss any age-appropriate behavior of little kids, but if it is not age appropriate it is.

Examples:

Two-year-old Devoiry often runs around the house without clothes on after a bath - Not LH
Eight-year-old Shmuely walks around the house without clothes on - LH

Three-year-old Sara'le often doesn't share her toys - Not LH
Ten-year-old Yaakov doesn't like sharing his books with his little brother - Still seems normal to me, not LH
Fifteen-year-old Mendel always has to decide what to do and will never let anyone else have a say - LH

However, if any harm is likely to come out of what you are saying or it is something that could embarass someone (like saying that the toddler daughter of a netafreak is always messy), it may be LH anyway.

↑ ShakleeMom ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:45 pm

OK, picture this:

Mora Esther teaches Rochella in first grade. Then, Rochella goes into second grade and Mora Esther runs into her new Mora in the teacher's room. Rochella had issues with handwriting and there was a long saga related to that... so the moras strike up a conversation. Can you visualize this?

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:46 pm

My relative and I were discussing how certain kids have gone from being really wild last year, to much calmer this year.

We think there might be an expectation that little kids are often wild. We were having the discussion so that we could share techniques that worked to control the bad behaviors, since of course, not every technique works for every kid.

It sounds like maybe it was OK.

↑ Atali ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 6:53 pm

ShakleeMom wrote:

If the conversation is likely to hurt Rochella, then it is a problem. If it is more likely to help her, then it is fine. If it will have no effect either way, then if her issues are age appropriate it seems fine.

chaylizi

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 7:02 pm

what about the teachers who feel the need to "warn" the next grade's teacher about her "problem spots", just as a friendly heads up. The new teacher then treats these children differently, just because of hearsay information.

↑ ShakleeMom

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 7:09 pm

chaylizi wrote:

Biggest crime in the history of the educational system!

apple24 ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 7:16 pm

I am a teacher myself and at our staff meetings in the beginning of the year we discuss each student with last years teacher. I think that this is EXTREMELY important. More often than not there is info about a child that can e help the new teacher for example, where to seat him in the classroom, or the fact that he is a visual learner etc... or that this child's parents are divorced or this child has a religious mother but the father is not. These "little" pieces of information can make a huge difference in how a teacher would deal with a child and sensitize them to understand the specific needs of the child at hand.
This new teacher/old teacher meeting is new. We've only done it the last 2 years, but it has made such a difference...atleast for me. I used to spend the first month or so trying to figure things out that someone could have just told me. I still think its important to have your own expectations and observations of the child, and obviously some kids "click" with certain teacher personalities and not others, and I think any decent teacher will be conscience of that fact and look to develop their own positive associations with every child in the class.

↑ amother ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 7:21 pm

ShakleeMom wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Biggest crime in the history of the educational system!

I guess it depends on the nature of the conversation.

One of my kids has issues, and over the years, he had rebbes who didn't understand his problems, and they handled the situation and DS very badly. Now, I make sure to tell each new rebbe myself about what is going on with him, what has worked in the past, etc. It has really helped cut down on the bad cycles that used to happen.

↑ apple24 ↓

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 7:59 pm

amother above, we teachers really appreciate parents like you who want to help us understand how to serve their child...it is the best when parents and teachers work together...kol hakavod! There are too many parents who are either too timid or in denial about their child's issues. Its a breat of fresh air to hear about someone like you!

kitov

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 8:14 pm

When my dd started each year up to second grade, I would take her to school the first day instead of going by bus, and discuss with the new teacher her issues and tips to help her. I would also then authorize her to speak to the last year teachers to collect information on tips that actually worked in the classroom, since I'm only a mother and don't get to see how things work out in the classroom.

The subsequent years I wait for a full week, so the teacher could familiarize herself with dd, and maybe even pick up on a few cues herself. And then I call, explain the issues (nothing major, not even considered LD, just needs some particular assistance in some particular fields), and yes. ASK her to call last years teacher to hear how things went with her in the classroom.

I want the best for my dd. I want her to be successful, and reach her utmost potential. I will utilize every tool there is, even if it is last years teacher!

Fox

Wed, Oct 07 2009, 8:52 pm

I think the majority of teachers really do share information with the intention of helping their students, and most of the time, they do so appropriately. A few thoughts from my own experiences as a teacher as well as a mother:

1. Make absolutely, absolutely sure that you cannot be overheard by another teacher or a student -- even appropriate conversations have a way of being distorted when they are repeated to someone else. Also, it's very unpleasant to hear that your child was the topic of conversation in the teachers' lounge!

2. Don't play armchair psychoanalyst. You don't need to discuss all the rumors about the Ploni family's home situation and why young Shayna Maidel Ploni is so difficult. Everybody, and I do mean everybody, has "problems" at home of one type or another. They may be big problems; they may be small problems that seem big . . . none of us have perfect lives, and it is very hurtful and painful to find that a child's teachers have been examining one's family for evidence of dysfunction.

3. Vent a little if you need to, but try to do so with a sense of humor. Remember that if every student was smart, diligent, disciplined, and eager to learn . . . we wouldn't need teachers; we could just sit the kids down with a pile of books and tell them to have at it!

Yasher koach for being so sensitive about this topic! I'm sure your efforts will be greatly rewarded over the years!

red sea

Thu, Oct 08 2009, 7:16 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Biggest crime in the history of the educational system!

I agree. Shaklee your idea to have someone make the list for educational purpose topic I think is a good one.

Tellng the next teacher that this child has a physical handicap re seating or this child only has one parent so the teacher doesn't embaress or hurt the child; good. Telling the next teacher this child is a wild animal and horrible behavior problem, is irresponsible or any such type negative behavior - I think is prob closer to LH. The child may have changed the behavior by now, there is no need to forewarn, they are still going to have the child in their class and will see for themselves how the child is, pre-warning will not help he teacher teach the child and may only cement a bad first impression without giving the child a chance.

He*Sings*To*Me

Thu, Oct 08 2009, 9:18 am

ShakleeMom wrote:

chaylizi wrote:

Biggest crime in the history of the educational system!

ShakleeMom, I 100% agree with your statement there!

I'd have my children OUT of any school like that so quickly that it would make your head spin!

Personally, I think there ought to be HIPAA laws in place about children's educational records. The "conferencing" needs to be between parent(s) and educators BEFORE the school year commences, not 6-8 weeks into it. Let the educator(s) meet the parents and draw from them insight about their child(ren) and build a rapport with the parents and student. That would also help create a true partnership between parents and teachers, rather than the almost seemingly adversarial "relationship" some teachers and parents end up with.

↑ apple24

Thu, Oct 08 2009, 8:25 pm

he sings to me; that idea can work beautifully as long as the parent is in touch with who their child really is. When you have 10 parents who think that THEIR child is G-ds gift to world and can not imagine how their perfect child could ever even think a "Chutzpadik thought" let alone actually say it. I have to say I usually have 3-4 parents a year who think that way about their child and the parents attitude ALWAYS hinders thei child's growth.

↑ amother

Sat, Oct 31 2009, 6:26 pm

Is it okay for your childs Rebbe to talk to his wife about your child? Is that considered Loshon Harah?

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