A Jewish mother who doesn't want her son to be a doctor????

amother ↓

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 1:19 am

My son wants to be a doctor, and I have serious concerns about it! Am I crazy? My child is showing a great interest in becoming a doctor. In fact, he is "sure" he wants to be either a family doctor or a pediatrician, although he is doing research on just about every specialty. He knows it takes very hard work and many years and he says he wants to do it.

My concerns:
1. money - how will we/he pay for medical school?
2. parnassa - how will he support and wife and family while in medical school?
3. practical issues - how to do all the prereqs and other courses when he is expected to go to yeshiva (Chabad) etc. - maybe online learning to get a head start?
4. tznius - yes I know doctors can see female patients, etc., and in general I don't see a problem with that. But I can't picture my son going through, for example, a gynecology rotation as a frum man. Even to be a pediatrician, there is a component about teen girls' health, etc. and I just am not sure it's the place for him because of the tznius aspect.

Maybe if he was determined to be a cardiologist, etc., I would feel differently, but with his current interests, the tznius/gynecology aspect is just kind of making me cringe.

Actually he wanted to be a urologist (!!) until he found out they basically all do surgery, and he does not want to do surgery.

Part of me thinks I should guide him toward a different field that is also medical-related, but that does not require medical school. Or am I just selling him short when being a doctor is his interest? Even though he is too young to really know all the options out there? (He's 13.)

↑ amother ↓

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 3:56 am

When I was 10 or 11 I wanted to be a nurse. As a younger child I was in hospital a lot and I just loved the smell of hospitals. Everything about them made me so excited....So I wrote to the best nursing school in my country at age 11 and said "I would like to be a nurse, what should I do?"

The head nurse of the school invited me and another young girl in for an interview and a tour of the school. I was estatic to be that close to nurses and schools and even have my own personal interview at 11 years old! I just knew I wanted to be in a hospital when I grew up!

Later on I wanted to be a doctor...but it wasnt meant to be for many different reasons, and even my nursing career had to be ditched (still a bit sad about that really).

In the end I found a profession that fits in with my family , my frumkeit and my idealogy - and yes its in the hospitals! My heart just beats everytime I get close!

My advice is encourage him as much as possible. If you dont he will blame you. My parents encouraged me and I have no reason to be upset at them, it was my own doings that led me away from medicine....but its ok, I can deal with that better than if my parents had discouraged me.

Its a life lesson, my young kids often say "can I be a librarian?" or "can I be a surgeon?" or "can I be a kallah?" I say yes to them all, beacuse who am I to dash their dreams?? BTW there are many frum docs in Israel, also frum gyni's...why don't you have him write to a frum doctor to find out how s/he did it? I also did that, I found a frum doctor who answered all my questions when I was about 13 or 14......

ss321 ↓

Tue, Aug 25 2009, 6:41 am

amother, not alot of time to respond but here is the best advice I can give in a short x:

yes, your concerns (all 3) are legit.
re $: there are federal loans that he surely will be eligible for and they do not incur interest until he graduates and is able to slowly pay them back. Yes, medical school is very expensive. but hes 13 so I wouldnt let that worry you one bit. it is (potentially) >10 yrs away.

in terms of parnassa - that is a difficult question, but keep in mind (and no, I am not comparing the "schar" [if there is any] for going to secular "medical school" to the schar for limud torah!!) that many wives work while their husbands are in kollel for a few years, to help support their families, and then their roles turn to being more FT at home moms once the husband starts working. It is not impossible.

practical issues - to each their own. I know lots of guys who have taken the prereqs at night while spending all day in Yeshiva (or vice versa). if you are totally anti-college then yes, this might not be the career choice for him. but if you are open minded to the idea, with schools like Touro that really do a great service for the frum community, it is totally feasable with Yeshiva. Online learning will help for some prereqs like english or humanities requirements, but the science prereqs AFAIK cant really be taken online, there is a lab component, and even if the classwork can technically be done online, I dont think med schools look highly upon that.

4. Tzniyus - IMVHO, there is a significant difference between a frum married man in medical school and a single guy in medical school. aside from the tzniyus issues you mentioned- there is the very basic issue of going to school every day, and mingling and becoming friendly with, female classmates. that is all very handleable (IMO) as a married student, a bit tougher if you are single.

he is 13. When I was 13 I went through a lawyer stage. I also went through a teacher stage (that was at 11). I wanted to be a nurse at one point too, IIRC. He is a kid, and he might change his mind a dozen more times, and that is perfectly ok! And he might (like most of my friends who were pre-med!) go to college, take some, or all of the prerequisites, and then change his mind. or go further and take the MCAT
and change his mind. or still yet, apply to medical school, and change his mind. Rabos Machshavos Beleiv Ish....

Either way, YOU should just be enthusiastic and supportive of his dreams...look at it this way - IF you encourage him and it does work, he will always be thankful to you for supporting him. If you discourage him and it doesnt work, he will always blame you for crushing his dreams.

Moreover dont worry about what he says he is interested in, I think just encourage him. As many times as a teenager might change their mind about what they want to be when they grow up, is as many times as a medical student might change their mind re specialties. I went through a die hard psychiatry phase. And every now and then I still shoot myself for not trying for OB. He might change his mind a million times over. While the tzniyus issues you mention are real - like I said before, big difference between married med student and single med student. At least from where I see it.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 1:28 am

amother wrote:

Thanks - that is a great idea - I will find frum doctors for him to talk to (I know several).

I'm curious which field you ended up in?

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 1:31 am

ss321 wrote:

amother, not alot of time to respond but here is the best advice I can give in a short x:

yes, your concerns (all 3) are legit.

<snip>

ss321, I was hoping you would respond to my thread! Thank you - your entire post was so helpful and detailed and I know you really know what you are talking about.

Absolutely I will encourage him. He wants to start taking chemistry and more math in online courses right now (since his school does not offer these courses) and I think that is great. I do have my concerns but I think another decade of him maturing and planning and coming to decisions will likely solve much of that. The tznius issue is probably the hardest for me to think about - really makes me uncomfortable.

↑ amother ↓

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 1:38 am

amother wrote:

The number of mothers that wish that they could be in your position is immeasurable. To have a son, who is bright, and ambitious enough to want to go to medical school...wow, you hit the jack pot.

Most people in Med school take out loans and in about 4 years he will earn a living, He probably will make 6 figures for most of his life.

I think that you need to let him run his own life, after all, he is not a child anymore.
I think that you have to have betochon and trust that all of his education both in Yeshiva and at home will play a role in how he lives his life.

Absolutely he will run his own life - although at 13 he is still really a child (not in terms of halacha, I understand - but he is a "kid").

The interesting thing is that while he is definitely bright, he does not generally do that great in school. He sees through any boring nonsense and gets in trouble for saying exactly what he thinks! So he is considered a troublemaker and his enthusiasm for school is rather lacking. But THIS - being a doctor - gets him excited and he wants to work hard for THIS.

Interestingly I know two boys from my youth (one elementary school, one high school) who were very similar to my son in those ways - seemingly big troublemakers, not so academic - and they are both doctors today. The one from high school - a kid who was into not-great stuff back then although he was quite smart and could do well if he wanted to - followed in his father's footsteps and became a nephrologist.

↑ ss321 ↓

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 8:06 am

amother wrote:

ss321 wrote:

amother, not alot of time to respond but here is the best advice I can give in a short x:

yes, your concerns (all 3) are legit.

<snip>

ss321, I was hoping you would respond to my thread! Thank you - your entire post was so helpful and detailed and I know you really know what you are talking about.

awww

I m touched embarrassed

amother wrote:

Absolutely I will encourage him. He wants to start taking chemistry and more math in online courses right now (since his school does not offer these courses) and I think that is great. I do have my concerns but I think another decade of him maturing and planning and coming to decisions will likely solve much of that. The tznius issue is probably the hardest for me to think about - really makes me uncomfortable.

thats great! let him get this hands wet so to speak. Dont freak out about all the tzniyus issues just yet, he is THIRTEEN!! Just encourage him. He has- seriously, 10 years- in which he can change his mind still.
I do understand why you are uneasy, and these are all issues that frum doctors have to deal with every day. If in a couple of years from now he is still gung-ho on the idea, then I would advise you or your DH to find a "mentor" for him.
It should be someone who is similar to you frumkeit wise (ie - dont find a yeshivish guy, find someone who IS lubavich, in YOUR world), and preferably someone who is a FFB - so they didnt go to med school and then decide AFTERWARDS to become religious, because then the issues your son might face - are issues they did not face. IIRC, when I was in college, a (male) cousin of mine who was also premed, had a Chabad lab partner from Crown Heights in Orgo. I dont know what happened to him (its not like we were friends, I just took the class at the same time as my cousin so we compared notes), but I mean someone like that - who is a few steps ahead of him and can advise him (and you and DH) as to how to proceed Smile

↑ ss321

Thu, Aug 27 2009, 8:10 am

amother wrote:

The interesting thing is that while he is definitely bright, he does not generally do that great in school. He sees through any boring nonsense and gets in trouble for saying exactly what he thinks! So he is considered a troublemaker and his enthusiasm for school is rather lacking. But THIS - being a doctor - gets him excited and he wants to work hard for THIS.

1. albert einstein failed his way through school Smile

2. perhaps he is not doing well because he is BORED and totally uninterested in what he is learning. some passion might take him very far in school.
3. as much as I want to say High school matters, lets be realistic here. he is not aiming to go to Harvard or Yale for Undergraduate (I dont think he is at least). I am assuming you live in NY, in which case your choices will probably be: Touro or (if you are ok with Co-ed, which many single boys are not, and understandably so) Brooklyn College. You cant fail through school, but as long as you are getting mostly B's and do relatively ok on your SAT's you are safe. and medical schools dont care one bit about high school. you can have your GED for all they care.

realeez

Fri, Sep 11 2009, 3:40 pm

amother wrote:

Maybe if he was determined to be a cardiologist, etc., I would feel differently, but with his current interests, the tznius/gynecology aspect is just kind of making me cringe.

Just to let you know: Generally, the OB/Gyn rotation is in med school before the person specializes (that's residency) so it wouldn't be different for different specialties. My dh is at the end of all this - he will IYH finish residency this coming July. We got married a couple of weeks after his med school interview and found out he got in days after finding out I was expecting child #1. B"H there are very good student loans and line of credit available for med students and residents.

↑ amother ↓

Sat, Sep 12 2009, 10:33 pm

I just noticed this thread and thought I should respond. first of all, I think OP should calm down! it is more likely than not at this point that your ds will not follow through with this. first, he is soooooo young, he still has a lot of growing up to do before he becomes who he will be. its interesting that you are taking this so seriously.
however, as the wife of a dr. I will tell you that I don't really want my ds to do this. I can't tell you how stressful the years of med school and residency were on our family. yes, I was 100% supportive but it was soooo hard. first, it is super competetive to get in. dh really wanted to do this so we had to move OOT and lived on our own shortly after we got married b/c that was where he got accepted to. then, aside from the intense schedule that dh had, we were constantly worried about shabbos and yom tov. yes, there are heterim for drs to work on shabbos but this problem can present itself already in medical school during the rotations and at that point it is difficult to argue that it is pikuach nefesh-you are there to observe and do the dirty work. . . then there was the stress of getting into a good residency program that was shabbos friendly. . . as well as all of the other issues that you and others mentioned ie: loans that have to be payed back FOREVER!
yes, I know that every field can be stressful but I think medicine is particularly so. I just touched the tip of the iceberg for you! therefore, imvho, unless this was my ds's life's dream and unless he truly understood how difficult it would be-- I don't think I would encourage this route.

↑ amother

Sun, Sep 13 2009, 12:23 am

OP here - thanks for responding (not so much thanks for telling me to "calm down" when I'm actually quite calm). I do appreciate your perspective as the wife of a doctor. In fact I would be interested in hearing more details if you want to share - the rest of the iceberg.

I take this seriously because AT THE MOMENT it is all my son talks about, and he is generally not at all interested in academics. But for this, he is excited about learning math & chemistry & biology and anything else that will help him with this goal. So, yes, I take him seriously, but if and when his goals change, fine.

To everyone else who responded as well - thank you so much for all the perspectives. Who knows if I will actually ever say "my son the doctor" - but in the end, for good or difficulty (I won't say bad) - it will be determined not by me, but by my son.