Halachic approval to Charedi widow to be surrogate mother

↑ Mama Bear

Tue, May 26 2009, 11:22 am

Inspired wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Surrogacy is a very thorny area in halacha.

Not really. Sperm donation is MUCH more problematic. The only issue is who the halachik mother is. So, as long as she is single and jewish it doesn't create any complicated status issues for the child.

if it werent thorny, then it would be more muttar. o bviously, it's still problematic.

sperm donation is mostly flat-out assur, whereever I checked. Not a single frum married person I know or came across or heard about, has done sperm donation. If they would, there wouldnt b e a single childless couple in atime.

↑ Inspired ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 11:27 am

Mama Bear wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Surrogacy is a very thorny area in halacha.

if it werent thorny, then it would be more muttar. o bviously, it's still problematic.

There is more than one kind of surrogacy. Only gestational is problematic and obviously not too much as there are rabbanim who consider it muttar, if that is what this couple is doing.
Surrogacy using the surogates eggs cannot possibly be assur, for those who consider IVF muttar.

↑ Seraph ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 11:28 am

PeachTree wrote:

Exactly my point seraph. The egg planted in her is obviously already fertilized, how does that make sense?

How does what make sense? This surrogate isnt married, there wouldnt be an issur for her to carry another man's baby. She isnt having relations with him so there isnt that issue of her having relations with someone she isnt married to.
However, the only issue I can possibly think of is if she would need a "get" from the father of the baby after she delivers if she'd want to be surrogate to another man's baby.

Last edited by Seraph on Tue, May 26 2009, 11:53 am; edited 1 time in total

mugsisme

Tue, May 26 2009, 11:36 am

Correct me if I am wrong, but Halacha says that whoever is the birth mother is considered the mother. So it would get thorny later on. You have to make sure that none of her own children marry, and as was pointed out, what if she has more than one.

I just wonder ... how much do you think these women think it through? You feel a life growing inside of you. Even if know it isn't yours, wouldn't you still feel some attachment? And afterwards, your milk comes in, and there is no baby to nurse. You belly is all stretched out and you have nothing to show for it. I think it is sweet that she wants to help this other couple, but there are so many things you can't anticipate. How would she feel if chas v'shalom she has a miscarriage? Or she falls and the baby chas v'shalom gets hurt? Or it is born defective? Or there is a problem during childbirth? While all of these are rare, they still happen. (I have a friend online whose daughter suffered brain damage during the birth since oxygen was cut off during the delivery.) These things DO happen, and then you DO have to live the results.

Raisin ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 11:45 am

mugsisme wrote:

how many times do you think someone would be a surrogate? twice? three times? I'm sure its easy enough to keep track of the kids. wheras with sperm donation a guy give sperm for a bunch of kids and disappears.

↑ catonmylap

Tue, May 26 2009, 12:10 pm

Mama Bear wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Surrogacy is a very thorny area in halacha.

There are frum couples who have taken sperm donation from non-Jews. It does exist. I know one such couple. There are Rabbanim who permit it.

↑ Mini Cookie ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 12:15 pm

Quote:

Surrogacy using the surogates eggs cannot possibly be assur, for those who consider IVF muttar

what about the sperm it has in it?? IVF is very acceptable even in the most ultra orthodox circles! Its the wife's eggs, HER husband's sperm & there's a mashgiach overseeing the process to make sure they don't mixup somebody else's egg or sperm. I don't see how that is anything like taking ANOTHER woman's egg & HER husband's sperm or one's own egg & some man's sperm & carrying that fetus in you!

↑ Mini Cookie

Tue, May 26 2009, 12:20 pm

Quote:

I believe the fact that another man's sperm that one isn't married to, goes into her, is problematic! It's not the point of having actual relations, its another man's sperm in her!

Anyway, I'm sure Rabbonim that are way smarter & learned than I am have thought & argued this through. I'm just saying there's a reason that most Rabbis do not allow surrogacy but each to his own...I'm jsut voicing my own little opinion.

Clarissa

Tue, May 26 2009, 12:31 pm

Disclaimer: I’m not discussing halachic implications.

I have three friends and acquaintances who have used surrogates for their children, and one who is now just starting. The agency required that the surrogates already have children of their own, and the preference was that they felt that they were finished having children, although that wasn’t a sure thing, obviously. The women were screen extensively by psychologists before being allowed into the program.

If they are able to use the mother's eggs (meaning the woman in the couple) and her husband's sperm, it's a wonderful way to procreate using their own genetic material, if that is important to them. It's also a great way, whether or not the genetic materials of both parents are used, to have a baby using a gestational carrier who has been screened for various issues that might be of concern to prospective parents, such as family history, prenatal care, no drug use, etc.

I have a friend who is using a surrogate right now, as we speak. It's been a wonderful experience for the couple. Not inexpensive, but a great gift to be able to share the experience of their child's gestation, even if it isn't in their own home.

The women who do it are doing so out of kindness, but there’s no secret that almost all of them also do it because they are paid. As well they should be -- as a friend of mine says, if any of them say that they don’t care about the money, they’re lying. And there’s nothing wrong with wanting the money -- it is a big thing to go through. One friend who used the same surrogate for two children (several years apart) told me how she’d happily offered to provide pumped milk for the first few weeks, to give the children the best start. They declined, but it says something about how much she cared. She also cared about the money, but that didn’t mean her heart wasn’t in it.

I know that those of us who have been blessed with children would want everyone who desperately wants this to have every opportunity. Some people are able to build a family with nothing more than turning the lights off and expressing the beatiful and holy feeling they have for their husbands. Others, unfortunately, have to go down a different, and more difficult, road. The end result for both is, hopefully, a child.

↑ Seraph

Tue, May 26 2009, 12:33 pm

Mollys Mama wrote:

Quote:

I don't think you're understanding the point I'm making. Halachically, biah is a method of kinyan for marriage. Not the most accepted nowadays, but lets say this woman wasnt married to this guy, went to the mikva, had relations (with eidim) with him for the purpose of a kinyan for marriage, and carried his baby... Well, there technically wouldn't be any issur with that, because she is not married to anyone else, so its not eishes ish- she is muttar to him.
So then lets say she is carrying his baby, and then gives it to his "other wife" to raise... No halachic issue there.
So in this case, with this widow carrying the man's baby, she isnt even having biah with him- she is just carrying his sperm which is something that IS allowed, because she ISN'T an eishes ish.

As I said, my question is- why wouldn't she need a get from this man afterwards though?

↑ Inspired ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 1:47 pm

catonmylap wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Inspired wrote:

Mama Bear wrote:

Surrogacy is a very thorny area in halacha.

There are frum couples who have taken sperm donation from non-Jews. It does exist. I know one such couple. There are Rabbanim who permit it.

Right, very problematic but as I have learned can be mattered by some.

↑ Raisin

Tue, May 26 2009, 1:51 pm

Mollys Mama wrote:

Quote:

it actually discusses in the gemara the case of a woman who goes to a bath house and sperm from a man (who bathed before her) enters her and impegnates her. I don't rememeber the conclusion, but it is discussed.

↑ Inspired ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 1:52 pm

Mollys Mama wrote:

Quote:

Surrogacy using the surogates eggs cannot possibly be assur, for those who consider IVF muttar

First, try reading what you quoted. There is no issur for a non married woman to get pregnant through IVF, if you consider IVF muttar (not everyone does, fyi)

Second. you "don't see it" but there issue no violation off any halachik principle that you are bringing for basing your opinion on.

↑ Inspired ↓

Tue, May 26 2009, 1:55 pm

Mollys Mama wrote:

Quote:

I believe the fact that another man's sperm that one isn't married to, goes into her, is problematic! It's not the point of having actual relations, its another man's sperm in her!

You might feel that, but for a single woman it is really not much of a halachik issue, if it is any at all.

Quote:

Anyway, I'm sure Rabbonim that are way smarter & learned than I am have thought & argued this through.

Yes.

Quote:

I'm just saying there's a reason that most Rabbis do not allow surrogacy but each to his own...

No, your hypothesizing as to what those reasons are but not using actual halachik reason.

Quote:

I'm jsut voicing my own little opinion.

That much is true.

↑ Inspired

Tue, May 26 2009, 2:00 pm

Raisin wrote:

Mollys Mama wrote:

Quote:

This is only an issue for an eishes ish, the question is mazerus. I believe in that instance at least some in the discussion conclude that the baby is assumed to belong to the man the woman is married to and is NOT called a mamzer. This would be at least one source for mattering donor sperm for a MARRIED woman.