writing style frum vs secular

Raisin

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:10 pm

I have a read a huge amount of books, both jewish and secular. I've never read the bad frum fiction you are describing, simply becasue I boycott any book which has the words cia, mossad, or spine tingling adventure. I've read some tolerable and some pretty good frum fiction. Rachel pomerantz is pretty good, whoever wrote hearts of gold is really not that bad, and then some other ones which range from tolerable to good. If it is terribly written I probably won't finish it.

There is also some pretty awful non Jewish fiction out there. Some of the books that make it to the best seller lists amaze me. Most of them only sell their books by including a few s-x scenes.

The frum kids books I have are no worse then most secular kids books. I really don't think the babysitters club or whater is all that better writte then the bakers dozen. We haven't met the frum J K rowling yet, but who knows.

Sherri

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:15 pm

Raisin wrote:

See, it's all subjective. I happen to agree with you about Rachel Pomerantz (besides perhaps her last book) and can not believe you are comparing Hearts of Gold to her books!

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:19 pm

sequoia wrote:

I have read Xtian fiction so I can imagine somewhat.

Now that you mention it, I'm in the middle of a xian fiction series in which the coincidences are so pat, by now I can predict that the English girl who ran away to Amish country when she found out she was adopted by her manhattan socialite parents will turn out to be the baby who was kidnapped as she slept in her baby carriage behind an Amish vegetable stand at the Brooklyn farmer's market 22 years ago. The sweet Amish girl who befriended her will turn out to be her fraternal twin sister, and the pleasant woman who teaches her the secrets of quilting will be her birth mother.

zigi

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:24 pm

Sherri wrote:

I don't think that being frum and a good writer are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps many of the frum writers aren't the real talented ones, and haven't been trained properly. You can't expect to compare frum writers to the prize-winners, and many not even to the ones who write fantastic books and who have been learning how to write well. Writing is an art, but there is a science to it. (BTW- the percentage of frum writers to secular writers is a tremendous ratio- what do you expect?)

With all that said and done (playing devil's advocate), I think the op was asking about specifics in the differences. I think that frum writers concentrate mostly on plot (and it was explained why the plots are limited) and not necessarily on components of writing like keeping it simple (a writing teacher of mine used to say, "Cut the fat!"), character development, structure, the nuances of language...

eta: I think the above posts have clearly described the writing. Wink

I meant in general some authors write really well. on yom tov I read frum novels and then sidney sheldon and james patterson. they are the in the thriller genre, ok I get that but I just read the book nothing jumped out at me. I looked at the vocab level they are really not that high. there was description. john grisham uses description he draws out a character. it reminds me of yair winestock. is a lot of the problems translation? and trying to be the next award winning author. orthonomics had a post that spoke about frum authors don't have the chance to really read other works, if they belong to certain groups that limit secular literature. I like to read a wide range of books. thriller, shopaholic.. chick lit. historical fiction.

I like frum short stories they do cut out alot of fat it is about day to day life.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:24 pm

Sherri wrote:

Raisin wrote:

See, it's all subjective. I happen to agree with you about Rachel Pomerantz (besides perhaps her last book) and can not believe you are comparing Hearts of Gold to her books!

I don't like rachel pomerantz. and hearts of gold featured a heroine who was immature and frankly unintelligent. I read snippets of it when I visited my parents for shabbosim. never finished the whole thing. but come on, she's so stupid as to let her parents get involved in her marriage? why can't someone write a book about a woman who's mature enough to handle her own problems?

chavamom

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:28 pm

I had to look up "Hearts of Gold". Why does this sound like the parody written above?

Quote:

Hearts of Gold 2
A Novel
by Devora Weiner

One of the most talked-about stories in recent years was the story of Avrummy and Raizy, the innocent young couple who gets sucked into a maelstrom of controversy and conflict. They learn, the hard way, the awesome destructive power of irresponsible words, attitudes and actions.

This sequel traces the consequences of the events in Book 1, and the toll paid in human suffering. Confronted by yet another crisis, the characters transcend their petty differences and internal flaws, in a heroic effort at reconciliation. A raw portrait of the heights, and depths, of the human spirit!

Raisin

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:29 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

Sherri wrote:

Raisin wrote:

See, it's all subjective. I happen to agree with you about Rachel Pomerantz (besides perhaps her last book) and can not believe you are comparing Hearts of Gold to her books!

Oh, I thought it was not so subtly poking so much fun at shallow, selfish Raizy and her family, while extolling the thoughtful, kind hearted chani. If you didn't read the whole story, you probably won't get it.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:30 pm

chavamom wrote:

I had to look up "Hearts of Gold". Why does this sound like the parody written above?

Quote:

well, I admit I was thinking of hearts of gold when I mentioned the gambling addiction. that may be why.

Sherri

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:30 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

Sherri wrote:

Raisin wrote:

See, it's all subjective. I happen to agree with you about Rachel Pomerantz (besides perhaps her last book) and can not believe you are comparing Hearts of Gold to her books!

(...I keep erasing what I write, scared that I am going to end up writing LH about a whole bunch of different authors when I analyze, or offend people... Whatever...)

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:33 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

come on, she's so stupid as to let her parents get involved in her marriage? why can't someone write a book about a woman who's mature enough to handle her own problems?

Right. If we want to read about women stupid enough to let their parents interfere in their marriages, we have plenty of material right here on imamother, the best part of which is that it's all (possibly) true.

ozfest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:43 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

louche wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

louche, let's write a serial together. it'll be published in mishpacha, and it can have about 150 chapters. what do you say?

Deal! You come up with the story line and I'll mine my eighth-grade vocab homework for overblown adolescent verbiage.

**************************************************************************************

Would-be frum novelist. Will write for ice cream.

just make sure to use the adolescent verbiage wrong. and I'll have my husband write a program to distribute commas at random intervals. maybe we can get some in mid-word...

mummiedearest - when you publish your book, an extra large hardcover with glossy dust jacket and tall gold lettering is a must (otherwise how will it stand out on the judaica store book shelves?). Bonus points if you could turn it into a trilo$y.

Atali

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:47 pm

louche wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

come on, she's so stupid as to let her parents get involved in her marriage? why can't someone write a book about a woman who's mature enough to handle her own problems?

Thats it Louche!

Write a novel about a woman who gets addicted to Imamother and it damages her family relationships. Her MIL finds out she is on the internet and cuts off contact with her because of it, but then the main character discovers that her MIL is really on here too, posting about her.

zigi

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:49 pm

I know that it must be hard to come up with plots. I thank frum authors for writing so there will be something to read.

lol! I like some of the fake plot lines that imamothers came up with.

what would be a good normal sounding plot line?

did anyone read prep? it is not so clean there are some scenes there. it is a book about a girl that comes from flyover country to an east coast prep school. there were the themes of being a fish out of water. and being found out that she was a scholarship student. it was a simple plot with the ups and downs of day to day life. and some of her awkwardness was all in her head.

this could be done in a frum novel. novels don't have to be over the top to be good

Sherri

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:53 pm

zigi wrote:

I agree with the premise: sometimes I wish we could switch the names and cut out the trash of books like that so that the frum world can have some good reading material. The concept behind the books aren't treif- they can easily be "kashered".
(A friend has been brainstorming for a while to do something like this, write a book for frum girls similar to what zigi has mentioned... or perhaps the frum version of Mallory Towers...)

PinkFridge

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 3:16 pm

Thanks Louche (and earlier, Mummiedearest). I REALLY needed this.

About Hearts of Palm, I mean Gold: I read a great deal of the judaica out there but will often just not read, or maybe skim, books if within the first ten pages there are characters whose heads I want to BANG AGAINST THE WALL! Why did this girl set her brother up with her sem friend, who was so obviously not for him?!?!

Other style issues include, but are not limited to
- the books being serials originally. Alexander McCall Smith manages to pull it off in his 44 Scotland Road books, and presumably Dickens did too though I haven't read his stuff but it doesn't always work out so well in our olam.
- the books are translated from another language and not well edited or proofread.
- the books are translated from another language with a very different style than we're used to. Some of these books have what to me seem like a lot of overthinking, navel gazing, and internal dialogues.
- when it comes to the secular world, there are hundreds and thousands of books. In judaica there is a much smaller number and not enough writers, or writers willing to take a chance. If we could clone Meir Uri Gottesman (like his books or don't; he is plain and simple a compelling author), or clone M. Basara (Sun Inside Rain) or get her to write more, that would be a good thing. Avner Gold, whose stories aren't perfect works of literature (in Midnight Intruders we barely get to find out anything about the last few decades of some very interesting characters from his earlier books) is still a great, intelligent author. We need to clone him too. And some others, but if I mention too many names one will wonder about other names and I don't want to talk too much about individuals.

mimivan

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 3:54 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

no, frum writers try to write out the emotions in the extreme. she can't be "somewhat saddened by the events of the day," she has to be "devastated, her heart ripped to shreds. her brother had run off with a girl who was too modern for him, and even though they got married before they ran off, she just knew life had changed for the worse. she didn't know how she could ever smile again, and she was sure she would never have that close sisterly relationship with her newest sister-in-law. she had looked forward to having a fifth sister-in-law to be best friends with, but now she had lost her opportunity and her brother as well. she could never look him in the eye again. especially since it turned out that he paid for the wedding with money he won gambling. he had a gambling addiction, and her heart ached for him and his new kallah who she could never be close with. she wondered if the kallah knew about the gambling. best not to tell her, she thought."

yadda yadda yadda. and of course the end of the story is that this woman's husband is a professional gambler and she finds this out after 25 years of marriage. oh, and her ultra-frum sister-in-law (the third one) secretly writes romance novels to support her husband in kollel. my, my.

say, maybe I could make a few bucks writing some drivel...

But you couldn't portray a Jew with a gambling addiction, because that would be a chillul Hashem...otherwise mummie..you've got the writing style down pat. Wink

Annie

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 3:54 pm

I think much has been said already, but for me (as a writer and an avid reader), what I like is characters that are REAL, DEVELOPED and CONSISTENT. Cookie cutter characters never work for me. Too many large vocabulary words also make me crazy, but we've covered that.

The only frum book that I've really enjoyed over the last 5 years was Sun Inside Rain. Why did I like it? Because the characters were interesting, developed, and even though I could see the conclusion coming a mile away, it was DIFFERENT and it wasn't so obvious how the author was going to get there.

Rebecca Pomerantz is tolerable, meaning that I'll read her stuff and that for frum fiction, it's pretty high up. Many books I've just had to put down b/c I really can't stand it.

I'm not looking for Jane Austen here, but some good, interesting characters, that are maybe a little fallable would be nice. An unexpected ending or twist would be good too. That's one of the things I don't like about Grisham -- he solves his novels too early.