writing style frum vs secular

zigi

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:05 pm

what is the difference b/w the writing style of frum books and secular books. what make one annoyed when they read a frum book? plot has too many holes in it? I read a book like that the dates didn't make sense it drove me crazy. too many descriptive words? I noticed when I read secular books the vocabulary is lower than frum books or short stories. I don't notice the actual words I am caught up in the plot. what do you think?

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:13 pm

with wording, less is more. frum writers don't seem to realize that. they overdescribe. the plots are often ridiculous and unrelatable, and their sentence structure is usually horrible. and they use too many commas. I get headaches from seeing too many commas on the page.

Fuchsia

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:16 pm

I can't exactly place it, but once you read all those prize-winning authors, and see what a good book can be, you can never go back to the frum books.

It's the sentence structure, it's the way they can bring out emotions, it's the way they can WRITE the emotions of the characters. Frum writers can't do that.

HindaRochel

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:30 pm

I am not certain it is frum writers, or the fact that if you want to write kosher Jewish fiction you are somewhat limited in how you can present the characters and plot. I don't mean simply being "clean" but one is hindered from presenting ideas in such a way that the reader doesn't realize the end is a foregone conclusion because Torah values must reign supreme.

The bad guys can not be actual frum yidden, but really secretly Shabbat violators, or non-Jews or whatever, for instance. Those who uphold Torah values (and the Torah values themselves in some way) must prove victorious.

But I often find a lot of modern writing lacking. The older classics used more developed language both in terms of sentence structure and word usage; greater complexity of thought rather than length. The author showed, rather than told. More tension. Better use of analogy, irony, satire etc.

In general I find most "frum" writing rather juvenile in theme and plot.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:33 pm

no, frum writers try to write out the emotions in the extreme. she can't be "somewhat saddened by the events of the day," she has to be "devastated, her heart ripped to shreds. her brother had run off with a girl who was too modern for him, and even though they got married before they ran off, she just knew life had changed for the worse. she didn't know how she could ever smile again, and she was sure she would never have that close sisterly relationship with her newest sister-in-law. she had looked forward to having a fifth sister-in-law to be best friends with, but now she had lost her opportunity and her brother as well. she could never look him in the eye again. especially since it turned out that he paid for the wedding with money he won gambling. he had a gambling addiction, and her heart ached for him and his new kallah who she could never be close with. she wondered if the kallah knew about the gambling. best not to tell her, she thought."

yadda yadda yadda. and of course the end of the story is that this woman's husband is a professional gambler and she finds this out after 25 years of marriage. oh, and her ultra-frum sister-in-law (the third one) secretly writes romance novels to support her husband in kollel. my, my.

say, maybe I could make a few bucks writing some drivel...

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:50 pm

HindaRochel wrote:

In general I find most "frum" writing rather juvenile in theme and plot.

and in style. They sound like jr. high school composition assignments in which you had to follow certain criteria: use at least X number of words from Vocabulary Book Chapter 3; at least 2 similes and a metaphor; three lines of dialogue in quotations...it's unnatural, self-conscious writing that forces you to pay attention to the medium rather than to the message.

Here's an example of what I mean:

Esther Blima opened her limpid blue long-lashed eyes and stared at the small, insert, [sic] shiny object glittering in the sweaty, red palm of her trembling, rough-skinned, work-reddened hand. It was as miniscule [sic] as a penny, yet as bright as the moon. "mamma," she cried, "a nes! the Kadosh baruch hu heard my tefillos and sent me a bracha!" Her pure and innocent neshama shined [sic] out of her pallid, pinched face and illuminated the malodorous, damp, dingy cell they called home.

Oy.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:52 pm

bubby wrote:

I agree with all the above. And I AM trying to make a few bucks by writing drivel....except my innate brilliance & talents keep getting in the way of said drivel.

What can you do? What

bubby, the best way to write such drivel is to sit down with the intention of SATIRIZING such drivel. somehow it comes out just the same as drivel...

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:53 pm

louche wrote:

HindaRochel wrote:

In general I find most "frum" writing rather juvenile in theme and plot.

Sherri

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:53 pm

I don't think that being frum and a good writer are mutually exclusive.

Perhaps many of the frum writers aren't the real talented ones, and haven't been trained properly. You can't expect to compare frum writers to the prize-winners, and many not even to the ones who write fantastic books and who have been learning how to write well. Writing is an art, but there is a science to it. (BTW- the percentage of frum writers to secular writers is a tremendous ratio- what do you expect?)

With all that said and done (playing devil's advocate), I think the op was asking about specifics in the differences. I think that frum writers concentrate mostly on plot (and it was explained why the plots are limited) and not necessarily on components of writing like keeping it simple (a writing teacher of mine used to say, "Cut the fat!"), character development, structure, the nuances of language...

eta: I think the above posts have clearly described the writing. Wink

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:56 pm

Sherri wrote:

agreed, sherri, but the plots stink. if you want to concentrate on the plot, you'd better make the plot the best possible, or it won't make up for the flaws in the rest of the areas.

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 1:59 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

no, frum writers try to write out the emotions in the extreme. she can't be "somewhat saddened by the events of the day," she has to be "devastated, her heart ripped to shreds.

ROFLMHO! Soooooo true!
maybe that explains my friend whose favorite word is "devastated". For years I thought she had a Hindu boyfriend: Deva stated that I gained three pounds, Deva stated that I can't go to the Shabbaton.

Look for my new series of frum novels, written under the pseudonym Sarah Heartburn, at your booksellers soon.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:02 pm

louche wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

no, frum writers try to write out the emotions in the extreme. she can't be "somewhat saddened by the events of the day," she has to be "devastated, her heart ripped to shreds.

lol! (not Deva Stated Heartburn, convert to judaism?)

Atali

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:03 pm

louche wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

no, frum writers try to write out the emotions in the extreme. she can't be "somewhat saddened by the events of the day," she has to be "devastated, her heart ripped to shreds.

Which topic are you going to write about? Shidduchim or dealing with your MIL?

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:04 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

louche, let's write a serial together. it'll be published in mishpacha, and it can have about 150 chapters. what do you say?

Deal! You come up with the story line and I'll mine my eighth-grade vocab homework for overblown adolescent verbiage.

**************************************************************************************

Would-be frum novelist. Will write for ice cream.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:06 pm

perhaps dealing with your secretive mil while looking for shidduchim for your incredibly ehrlich son (who has a secret gambling problem. and a drinking one) all while dealing with the traumatic memories of your childhood that you don't really remember but come back to haunt you in your dreams in snippets that don't make sense.

mummiedearest

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:07 pm

louche wrote:

mummiedearest wrote:

louche, let's write a serial together. it'll be published in mishpacha, and it can have about 150 chapters. what do you say?

just make sure to use the adolescent verbiage wrong. and I'll have my husband write a program to distribute commas at random intervals. maybe we can get some in mid-word...

louche

Thu, Oct 15 2009, 2:08 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

louche wrote:

For years I thought she had a Hindu boyfriend: Deva stated that I gained three pounds, Deva stated that I can't go to the Shabbaton.

Look for my new series of frum novels, written under the pseudonym Sarah Heartburn, at your booksellers soon.

lol! (not Deva Stated Heartburn, convert to judaism?)

That would be Dovid Stanley after his conversion.