Tacky question about hostess gifts/ Chabad

amother

Thu, Jan 01 2009, 3:54 pm

morningstar wrote:

Fair enough, Clarissa.
No reason not to discuss this subject in principle.
Imagine you were a hostess.
Under what circumstances might you not say "thanks" when you received a check for $108?

OP here.

I posted anonymous. I was not looking to vent. If you read my post again, I am in a position to be a guest again and wanted to check my understanding of the custom of the country, so as not to make another mistake. I shared my experience anonymously so as not to embarass anyone. I am very hurt that you would slam me (because others decided to say whether they agreed or not) and indicate that I should have stayed home. If you are not able to keep the mitzvah of hosting guests in the right manner, the answer is YOU should decline. I'd rather have an honest (no, we can't have you this weekend let me help you find another place) than feel like a "stranger in a strange land." I shared the anecdote so you'd understand where I was coming from. It's not a frivolous topic to prove I'm right.

I will stop before I start insulting morningstar in an attempt to hurt her back.

greenfire

Thu, Jan 01 2009, 5:00 pm

amother wrote:

you shouldn't feel bad for asking an honest question in regard to a difficult situation. bear in mind that whilst you had a bad situation - not everybody is that ungracious ... don't let it stop you from your generosity and your other excursions ...

Raisin

Thu, Jan 01 2009, 5:08 pm

greenfire wrote:

amother wrote:

it's great that you are so understanding, but in my community at least, it is very difficult to get people to put up strangers. And there are kashrus issues too. So it would actually be far easier for me to host somebody then find them a place with someone else.

(also I just hate asking favours from other people!)

I don't think you were venting, I think it was an excellent question, and that you are a dream guest. please come to me!

soulful music

Thu, Jan 01 2009, 9:19 pm

morningstar wrote:

It seems to me that there are two questions in this thread. One is a lovely and thoughtful one:
"I really would like to do something nice for my hosts. What do you think they might enjoy?"
If this is your question, there are many lovely answers, and you can pick the one that feels right for you and give graciously from the heart. A gift is always optional, and therefore, always appreciated.

The other is the tacky question, which is " I once gave $108 and I feel as if my hosts looked down at me because of it. So, who's out of line here?" For which there are lots of terribly non-gracious answers, all of which make me wish you hadjust decided to stay home that weekend.

Hosts, even lovely hosts, even Chabad House hosts, are sometimes tired, sometimes hard up, sometimes distracted, sometimes clumsy, sometimes overwhelmed, sometimes momentarily thoughtless. Just like their guests. And just as we expect hosts to forgive their guests their imperfections, one should judge hosts favorably as well. Even kind people have occasional lapses.

A great way to show your gratitude for you is by not inviting them to be slammed--even anonymously-- in a thread like this. If you had been my guest, I would appreciate that even more than your generous check for $108.

Well said, as usual!!

Good to see you again! Smile

Dalia Nechama

Fri, Jan 02 2009, 2:38 pm

Maybe I'm living in a different community ...

When I have guests I never expect them to bring a gift. They are my guests. I'm not running a hotel. I never expect to be "paid" or have my guests' "expenses covered." Now, if I were hosting a large family for an entire Yom Tov, a gift would be appreciated. But I'm not going to invite someone if I can't afford to feed them and expect them to pick up the tab or somehow make things even by giving me another candy dish.

When I'm a guest, I usually ask my hosts what I can bring and usually end up baking dessert. I realize that this would not work for a shaliach because of the kashrus standards. Perhaps this is desperately naive, and I am not trying to attack or insult anyone, but do shaluchim expect the people that are being mekarev to bring gifts. It is polite, but are you insulted if someone doesn't? That isn't my community, and I am asking so that I can understand.

Raisin

Sat, Jan 03 2009, 1:50 pm

Dalia Nechama wrote:

we are not talking about guests that shluchim invite from their community. we ar talking about frum people who travel to a foreign country or very out of town city for business or pleasure and the only place they can get a kosher meal is by the home of the shluchim. the shluchim are happy to help them, but when there are 10-20-30 travellors a week dropping by it can add up to a lot of money.

amother

Sat, Jan 03 2009, 2:38 pm

I think if u were a one time guest,and u wanted to show your appreciation by giving $108,as a gift to help them out,it sounds wonderful.

the fact that u perceived the "sniffing"of the amount may be your imagination (especially since u and dh each perceived something different).your dh expected no response,where as u did,which means maybe u (in the back of your mind)were paying for your stay?
and since u said

Quote:

I am in a position to be a guest again and wanted to check my understanding of the custom of the country,

.

so it would seem u are treating them as a a kosher hotel establishment(bc there isnt' a suitable place for u to stay?),which $108 would not be sufficient bc u would pay much more if it was an actual hotel.

but again if u went one time,loved the hospitality and wanted to thank them,the $108 would be great,but if u know u are going again,bc its the best kosher eating establishment in town,then pay them as if u were staying in a hotel.being a young couple has nothing to do with it....considering "u are in a position to go to this country again".

btw
looking at the check in front of u may be a faux pas,but so is writing a check and expecting a certain response.

a wonderful gift to give any chabad house is chumashim,seforim,or benchers w/the family's name on them,u can bring it when u come.it shows a well thought out gift.
figure out the amount u can spend on these things by looking at the cost of if u did stay in a hotel and divide it in half and spend that amount on the gift.

sorry its anon,once I'm a member I can go back and "own up"to my post embarrassed

bandcm

Sat, Jan 03 2009, 6:07 pm

Dalia Nechama wrote:

You are most certainly living in a different community - or should I say - you are living in a community, which most shluchim are not.
Do you have twenty to five hundred people every Shabbos? I didn't think so.
Do you or your husband have jobs that bring in money? I thought so.
Do you actually invite your guests, or are most of your guests people who find you on the internet and send an email saying "Hi, just to let you know that we are twenty-two people and will be spending next Shabbos with you. Make sure there is lots of gefilte! " ? I didn't think so.

So there is your answer.

(To clarify - most of the people who come don't send emails like the above, they are more polite. But we recive many emails/phone calls like these!)

Dalia Nechama

Sat, Jan 03 2009, 11:36 pm

Raisin,

Thank you for the clarification. I didn't understand the original situation, and I appreciate your clarifying it for me. Very Happy

Bandcm,

I had no intention of insulting. If I did so, I apologize. The Chabad families I know, while doing kiruv, are clearly not confronting the number of guests you are. If you have random people dropping in because you are the only frum option in town, and they are not individuals with whom you are cultivating a relationship to mekarev, your situation is indeed different. My understanding, or perhaps misunderstanding, of the OP was she, as a guest, wanted to thank her hosts. Since they were Chabad, she offered a check, thinking it would be appreciated. I was questioning the expectation of a gift in that context, I.e. the context of an invited guest. If, however, she did not know the hosts, if they had not extended an invitation, the situation is different. I wouldn't categorize her gift of $108 as insulting, however. Again, my intention was not to insult, as I said in my original question. The problem with written questions is that the tone is not always clear. I was asking to understand.

I would like to respond to the numerous assumptions you made about me, however. You are certainly correct, I do not have the number of guests you have, and I am sure it is desperately difficult to fund that degree of hachnas orchim. I do not have, however, money. I am a widow raising a child alone with no insurance money. My late husband was in kollel when we got married and was then a rebbe. I had been a stay-at-home mom until he died. I am now in chinuch. I do my best to invite people for meals, but, no, the scale is not anywhere near what you are describing.

B'shalom Hug

Strudel

Sat, Jan 03 2009, 11:41 pm

bandcm wrote:

Dalia Nechama wrote:

Nu? People don't go on shluchus to have a quiet life or to earn millions. 30 guests for Shabbos and huge seders are the norm. If you can't face that sort of life then do go to Nowhereville on shluchus. There is a choice.

amother

Sun, Jan 04 2009, 2:20 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

I am in a position to be a guest again and wanted to check my understanding of the custom of the country,

OP Here:

To clarify- I was not treating it as a hotel. Many communities have no hotels nearby. And the whole point of spending Shabbat alone in a hotel is? Aren't we AM ISRAEL? (Ok, not meaning to get testy with you) There were centers in the area. And since I'm not Chabad, I only know the "rep" of Chabad- welcoming, etc., happy to have guests. I asked a Chabad family what an appropriate hostess gift is. The answer as another poster mentioned was a donation. I called and asked if they could help us find a place for Shabbat. (Again, there are others who could have hosted us if they didn't want to be bothered).

As for being in the position again, I might need to stay at someone for a Shabbos in another city for a work conference coming up and if it ends up being Chabad...I'm much less anxious about people's reaction to my gift, but sought feedback and input so that I can make a better decision about the right kind of gift.

I disagree in a way with you on expecting a reaction. Common courtesy not being so common these days, but no matter what., most of us were raised to be gracious, say thank you for whatever our guests bring us, and if they don't bring anything (like some bochur in our neighborhood who rotates for meals but comes emptyhanded) you simply smile and thank them for coming. What's a good Meleve Malka without the debrief of what your guests did, I say somewhat sarcastically. They are helping you have an opportunity to do a mitzvah, right? ....And if I can't stomach someone coming, I find a way not to have them for I don't want to do a mitzvah with wrong intention.

Thanks again to everyone who responded constructively. I received several great suggestions.

su7kids

Sun, Jan 04 2009, 5:01 am

I think a check is generous, and in future, if you do plan to give one, take an envelope with you and put it inside, sealed. This way you can hand it over as you leave, and not see their reaction to it.

There is a tremendous amount needing to be learned in the world about gracious receiving. Some people act very "undeserving" and its very embarrassing for the giver.

People bring us wine often, and we always have open bottles and I think my husband should open the one one the guest brings, but he doesn't.

I'm not sure what the etiquette is, but an ungracious receiver, or making rude comments about the wine/gift brought is NOT nice.

GetReal

Sun, Jan 04 2009, 10:17 am

midwest wrote:

Midwest, it's true, shluchim choose to go on shlichus. That doesn't mean that anyone should be taking advantage of their choices. If you are on a business trip, and you would otherwise pay for a hotel, it's decent to contribute towards the costs of the food you eat, rather than say "the shluchim choose to be on shlichus, they knew it wasn't the type of life that earns them millions." The same is true of a frum family that is on a pleasure trip. The shluchim are struggling with every penny. They chose this way of life, yes, but if you are here on vacation, it's nice to help them a little, no? Their choices are theirs; you still have the responsibility to be menchlich.

greenfire

Sun, Jan 04 2009, 10:37 am

sarahd wrote:

According to the rules of etiquette, the host is not required to open the bottle of wine the guest brings and the guest should not expect him to. Otherwise, the guest is implying that the host wasn't organized or intelligent enough to prepare wine on his own.

I don't know the "rules" but I beg to differ - as a person who on occasion brings wine - it's not necessarily for kiddush but something nice to add to shabbos and imho should be opened at the table some time during the seudah ... otherwise a giver feels it didn't matter that they brought s/t ... same would go for any other edible gift - even if hostess already cooked ... it's rude not to put it out ... besides you cannot have too much wine Drunken Smile