Not Making Kiddush Between 6-7 o'clock

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Motek

Fri, Dec 10 2004, 12:23 pm

do you know for a fact that the reason why they don't sing shalom aleichem before kiddush is because they say it's a minhag ha'Gra?

if so, can you ask for the source? The person I've been speaking to would find that interesting.

jewgal84

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 5:27 pm

Motek- I know that it depends more of the hr than what you use for kiddush, do you know if it makes a diff weather or not it's a girl making kiddush?

youngmom

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 5:52 pm

sorry haven't read all the posts b/4 so ignore if someone already pointed this out.
my husband just looked up the idea of waiting till 7:00 and told me that it says that if are staying in shul and learning till 7:00- gr8 idea. but if not, it's better not to wait. you are supposed to make kiddush right away. I can find out where he got that from.

Motek

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 6:10 pm

jewgal84 wrote:

Motek- I know that it depends more of the hr than what you use for kiddush, do you know if it makes a diff weather or not it's a girl making kiddush?

it depends on the hour, not on who is making kiddush

youngmom wrote:

I can find out where he got that from

please do

hisorerus

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 6:55 pm

Making Kiddush immediately overrides the 6-7 issue.
Kitzur Halachos MiShulchan Aruch Admu"r HaZaken, p.153-154, and relevant footnotes

Please see my post in this (locked) thread for all details.

Motek

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 7:02 pm

hisorerus wrote:

Making Kiddush immediately overrides the 6-7 issue.

have you found then, that Lubavitchers don't wait?

I haven't! And not because they didn't want to make kiddush promptly but because they were davka waiting to avoid making kiddush between 6-7.

hisorerus

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 7:06 pm

Halacha is Halacha. What people do...

I know most Lubavitchers wait until exactly 7:00, which kind of defeats the purpose. Confused

Motek

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 7:10 pm

they are WAITING because they think you MUST

I know of a shiur that is scheduled for men at that time, davka in order to use the waiting time productively.

will b'n check out your source

youngmom

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:01 pm

I actually know of lubavitchers who don't wait.

[quote]youngmom wrote:
I can find out where he got that from

please do
[/quote]

I'll find the source soon, motek.

youngmom

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:10 pm

it's in shulchan aruch harav
siman 271, si'if 3.

youngmom

Thu, Dec 08 2005, 11:10 pm

actually the idea of a shiur is a very good thing. but WAITING AROUND is not so better to just make kiddush.

Motek

Sun, Dec 11 2005, 4:14 pm

better not to wait around!

not just Fri. nt. but any time, bittul Torah you know ...

hisoererus - I don't have the sefer you refer to. Feel like quoting it and the footnotes?

I asked my husband about it and he said it's clear from the Rebbe's answers that we are supposed to wait, though there could be times and circumstances where this is overridden by other considerations.

Motek

Sat, Jan 06 2007, 10:04 pm

getting close to that time of year again ...

chocolate moose

Sat, Jan 06 2007, 10:56 pm

Getting close?

We have been making kiddish at 7 PM for mos. already; as soon as the clock changed!

shalhevet

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 10:07 am

rydys wrote:

When I have to eat before kiddush, I eat a few crackers in my bedroom--I keep a package there for that reason--so they don't see. If I pulled out grape juice and a becher it would be more obvious. Also, I don't really tell my kids when I'm pregnant, especially in the begining when it is really an issue. So far my kids are young enough not to notice until pretty far along.

Why do you feel the need to hide the fact from your kids that you're making your own kiddush, which has no halachic problems? If they ask, just say that you're hungry and there's no problem making kiddush. Eating crackers is a problem, especially before the night kiddush, especially since it is easily solved by making kiddush yourself.

BTW, about grape juice (even though the consensus was that it makes no difference for this issue) - it is preferable halachically to make kiddush on wine.

It was mentioned that diabetics use challa. They can use 100% dry red wine plus water (that way they know how much water is being added). Carmel Mizrachi wines are 100% wine. Obviously this must be in consultation with a rav and doctor.

And as to the main issue, I have never heard of anyone waiting between 6-7 apart from Lubavitchers.

Motek

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 10:21 am

chocolate moose wrote:

Getting close?

We have been making kiddish at 7 PM for mos. already; as soon as the clock changed!

When candle lighting is 4:10 - 4:30, there is no reason why men can't be home after maariv before 6. Their choice if they want to delay, whether by learning or shmoozing.

Motek

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 10:25 am

shalhevet wrote:

And as to the main issue, I have never heard of anyone waiting between 6-7 apart from Lubavitchers.

Did you read what rydys, who is not a Lubavitcher, wrote on page 1?

rydys wrote:

I found a source! My husband brought this up at the Shabbos table this week!

Minhag Yisrael Torah (a sefer that brings sources for minhagim) brings the source as the Mogen Avraham who says to make kiddush before the night because the beginning of the night of shabbos is mazal ma'adim (ok, I was wrong!) and the end of the sixth day is mazal tzedek so one should make kiddush during tzedek. This is also brought down in the teshuvos of the maharil. The Machatzis Hashekel (which my husband says is one of the main sources for minhagey ashkenaz) says that this mazal is from the sixth hour until the seventh. It doesn't say whether this is 6 oclock to 7 oclock or the sixth to seventh shaos zemanios (halachic hours). The sefer further says that the Oruch Hashulchan says that one does not have to be careful for this bec. we are not under the rule of the mazalos and this reason is0 also brought down in the zohar. The Likutay Maharich says that if someone has poor people by his table who are hungry or thirsty he should not wait to make kiddush because the the mitzva of tzedaka changes din to rachamim. It also says that when Rav Shimon from Yarislav made kiddush during that hour he would say the piyut "Av Harachamim, hu yerachem am amusim..."

The above is my own paraphrase. This is found in Minhag Yisroel Torah, page 73.

Esther23

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 11:23 am

We are not lubavitch and my father always waited between 6 and 7. He is chasidish so maybe it's a chasidishe thing. My husband doesn't wait but whenever we eat by my parents we wait.

shininglight

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 11:34 am

I have NEVER heard of this. Can't wait to ask my husband if he has.

greenfire

Sun, Jan 07 2007, 4:10 pm

Okay my ex litvish and would wait or make kiddush on white wine only. and it is the 7th hour which depends on the time of year just like chatzos changes.

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