Not Making Kiddush Between 6-7 o'clock

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zuncompany

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 10:53 pm

I asked again... my husband said that this is the reason he makes on peach grape juice in the winter! I never knew!!!

Sara

Motek

Mon, Nov 29 2004, 1:11 pm

Quote:

I think it's the same time in winter and summer but in the summer it's not an issue since shabbos starts later.

that's right

Quote:

about the wine vs grape juice thing--he said it doesn't make sense to him

Reb Zalman Shimon Dworkin a'h, former rav of Crown Heights, said that both red and white should not be used between 6-7 (or whatever time you keep), it's about making Kiddush, whatever you make it on.

in all the Seforim that say that one waits till after 7, none give a heter of making kiddush on white wine or on bread.

I found this:

Quote:

read the essay about this Halacha/Minhag in Hiskashrus #379 (Hebrew) by Rav Yosef-Simchah Ginsburg. In footnote 2 he writes: "From the pashtus ha'inyan (and from the fact that all the sources state simply that one shouldn't make "Kiddush" (and also from the fact that the Alter Rebbe in Siman 472:26 and 272:4 that one can make Kiddush on white wine) it is clear that this has nothing to do with the redness of the wine, as many mistakenly think (because of the word "madim"), and this issue exists even if one were to make Kiddush on bread."

(some people, like diabetics, make kiddush on challa)

Pickle Lady

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 12:00 am

Motek, my husband spoke with Rav Osdoba today and he said the same thing. It doesn't matter what you make the kiddush on, even challah is not good. Also he said that anyone believing that you can make kiddush on white wine or challah is using a misinterpretation of the minhag. Rav Osdoba said that it had nothing to do with the type of wine but rather the Sanctification of the Day(kiddush) that can't be made between 6-7.

Yael

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 3:08 pm

how strict do u need to be on this? I remember when I was pregnant with my first early in the beginning and I was STARVING!!!!! but we were eating by someone else and so we had to wait for them to make kiddush. I had to hold myself from fainting for 45 minutes and also carry on as normal a conversation as I could so they wouldnt realize.

zuncompany

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 3:11 pm

Motek and shayna... thanks for the information. However I am going to go by what I was told.

Sara

rydys

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 6:19 pm

Yael--when you are pregnant you can eat before kiddush if you need to. I've been told that by many rabonim bec. I can never go 2 hours without eating in the begining

Pickle Lady

Wed, Dec 01 2004, 6:26 pm

I don't know about you Yael but when I am pregnant or nursing I will eat if I am really hungry and if will be a while till kiddush.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 12:37 am

Quote:

when you are pregnant you can eat before kiddush if you need to

why not make your own kidush??

rydys

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 7:00 am

When I asked the shaila I was told that it wasn't really necessary. Also, sometimes that's just not feasable. what if you are a guest at someone's house? I've had times that I've almost made it, but 10 minutes before my husband is coming home I have to eat--my kids would think its really odd for me to make kiddush on Friday night, especially if tatty is about to come home

ForeverYoung
Guest

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 10:06 am

Quote:

my kids would think its really odd for me to make kiddush on Friday night, especially if tatty is about to come home

but they don't find it strange when you eat before kidush?

you can explain that you have a baby in your tummy & the baby needs food. B/c it's Fri night, you're making kidush for the baby, b/c the babt's sooooo little. I think they will be albe to relate to this.

anyways, since I never asked this shaila, I'm just theorising. If your Rav said it's Ok, then it is.

gryp

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 10:48 am

Yael wrote:

.....when I was pregnant with my first early in the beginning and I was STARVING!!!!! but we were eating by someone else and so we had to wait for them to make kiddush. I had to hold myself from fainting for 45 minutes and also carry on as normal a conversation as I could so they wouldnt realize.

Yael, that sounds like something I would do too. only I could never eat out while in early stages of pregnancy. for me "out" means "out of bed..." Smile

rydys

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 11:05 am

When I have to eat before kiddush, I eat a few crackers in my bedroom--I keep a package there for that reason--so they don't see. If I pulled out grape juice and a becher it would be more obvious. Also, I don't really tell my kids when I'm pregnant, especially in the begining when it is really an issue. So far my kids are young enough not to notice until pretty far along.

Motek

Fri, Dec 03 2004, 1:30 pm

re non-lubavitchers: I asked someone I know who lives in Lakewood whether they wait till 7 (suspecting they did) and she says they wait

her husband is close with Rabbi Moshe Wolfson who I'm sure waits too

ForeverYoung
Guest

Sun, Dec 05 2004, 1:35 am

well, I have many friends in Lakewood too, and, as far as I know, they don't wait.

Also, Al pi Vilna Gaon, one has to make kiddush as soon as he comes home from shul - Groniks don't even sing before the kidush.

rydys: I will find out next time I'm pregnant. I once was at somebody's house for Shabbos & had to sit down in the middle of kidush b/c I almost fainted. It was at the begining of my 1st pregnancy, & since then I made sure to eat a good meal before lighting Wink

sarahd

Sun, Dec 05 2004, 6:46 am

Motek wrote:

This may be a chassidic custom: I have no Lubavtich relatives, but at a family simcha the question of waiting came up - some waited and some didn't, and if I'm not mistaken, it was the chassidim who waited. My father didn't, because his rosh yeshiva specifically didn't.

BTW, Lakewood may not have many - if any - Lubavitchers, but it has lots of chassidim.

Motek

Tue, Dec 07 2004, 11:35 am

ForeverYoung wrote:

Also, Al pi Vilna Gaon, one has to make kiddush as soon as he comes home from shul - Groniks don't even sing before the kidush.

I asked someone about this and he said:

Quote:

The book “Ma’aseh Rav” is supposed to bring all the customs and halochos of the Gr”a. I did not see anything about it in the book.

The Shulchan Aruch in siman 271 says “K’sheyavoh l’baiso yemaher le’echol miyad” (when he comes home, he should hurry to eat immediately)
and the Gr”a brings sources for that statement. He doesn’t mention the Magen Avraham who talks about not eating at the beginning of the night.

Why don’t you ask them to give you a source?

p.s. ForeverYoung: Lubavitch and the Gra have the same Menorah lighting custom - to light at shkia (sunset).

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Dec 07 2004, 11:44 am

there is also sidur HaGra wich has things that are not mentioned in that sefer (I think)

People I know (including a very respected Rav in our community) who follow his minhagim do not sing.

ForeverYoung
Guest

Tue, Dec 07 2004, 11:47 am

Motek, people you asked - do they follow minhagim of the Gaon?

Motek

Thu, Dec 09 2004, 1:33 pm

the person says he follows many minhagim of the Gra, more than most

he also pointed out that not even the talmidim of the Gra followed everything the Gra did!

ForeverYoung
Guest

Thu, Dec 09 2004, 9:49 pm

thanks -
the pepole I'm talking about are pretty strict in following Gra's minhagim to the best of their knowledge.

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