Not Making Kiddush Between 6-7 o'clock

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Motek

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 10:04 am

In Shulchan Oruch Ha'Rav, Hilchos Shabbos it says that Mazal Maadim (a certain astrological sign) rules in that period of time, and therefore kiddush should not be recited then.

some people follow this
many don't
not everybody paskens this way

some people wait from 6:30-7:30

in New York it's from 5:56-6:56, in Israel it's from 5:40-6:40

others just stick to 6-7

and it's not only Lubavitchers who wait, others hold this way too

Rochel Leah

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 10:19 am

I follow it, though it is pretty difficult now in the winter....in the summer when do you wait from? 7-8?

I heard form someone that if you make kiddush on whit wine it's ok to mkea it btw 6 and 7

gryp

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 10:23 am

I heard grape juice is fine too, so I guess it has to do with red wine. (ma'adim means red)

but we dont make kiddush then anyway, on whatever we use.

zuncompany

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 11:21 am

We use grape juice and were told we were fine... its red wine thats the problem.

Please do not jump on me for this comment... we were poskined this, so do not tell me what my Rav told me is not okay!

Tefila

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 1:15 pm

We wait till 7:oopm, this way my hubby can learn with the kids an added bonus no, not the reason though Smile

Last edited by Tefila on Wed, Nov 24 2004, 1:16 pm; edited 1 time in total

rydys

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 1:16 pm

I think this is a chassidishe minhag, never heard of litvishe or sephardim waiting. The time is the same irrelevent of shkia, always 6-7pm. I never heard of the grape juice issue, I'm going to ask. The term for the mazal is "madin", not "maadim". The shoresh is "dam" not "adom", although those 2 shoroshim are related.

BTW, chazal say that people born during those hours have a "calling to blood" (for lack of better terms). If they choose to use it poorly they will be murderers, use it well may be butchers, doctors or mohelim. I know all this bec. I was born during that time and my father thinks that's why I'm a doc! Interestingly enough, Moshe Rabbeinu was also born during that time.

Tefila

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 1:18 pm

Quote:

Interestingly enough, Moshe Rabbeinu was also born during that time and chazal say that if he hadn't overcome it he would have been a murderer

interesting, which chazal?

proudmom

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 3:23 pm

I dont wait at all and I am lubavitch

rydys

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 4:01 pm

freilich--you cought me in mid-edit! I couldn't remember where it was, so figured I'd take that part out until I look it up--I hate posting things without sources.

de_goldy

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 4:38 pm

We wait. Personally, I think that not waiting is similar to bringing shabbos in early - purely for convenience.

Having said that (nothing personal to anyone so dont attack), I think the time may depend on where in the world you are located, because where I live, it is between 6:20 and 7:20.

gryp

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 6:50 pm

im pretty sure it does depend on the time because I have kept it from 6:10- 7:10, and others like these depending on where I was.

how could the word "ma'adin" have the shoresh "dam"?

anyway, we make kiddush before 6:00 because we want the baby to be up for kiddush.

rydys

Wed, Nov 24 2004, 7:07 pm

not "ma'adim", the term is "mazal madin", and madin is arameic for blood. the hebrew shoresh is "dam"

gryp

Thu, Nov 25 2004, 11:57 am

I looked up the exact place in the Alter Rebbe's Shulchan Aruch where it talks about this: siman 271 sa'if 3 page 226
"there are those who are careful not to make kiddush in the first hour of the night (which is the seventh hour from chatzos, see siman 428) but before the night or after the hour in the middle of the night, because in the first hour the mazal ma'adim...rules on it. and we already explained that lichatchila one should make kiddush as soon as he comes home from shul while it is still day."

(free translation, if I made a mistake please tell me)

613

Fri, Nov 26 2004, 11:16 am

I have never heard of this in my life! are you sure it's not just a lubav. thing? also when you say 6-7, are you saying 6:00 - 7:00, or 6 (halachik) hours after chatzos? the quote from the shulchan aruch that RG just brought implies the latter, so why does it sound like most of you keep this from 6:00-7:00 year round?
not trying to sound demanding, just want to understand Smile

gryp

Fri, Nov 26 2004, 11:41 am

its around 6-7 in the winter, and I guess an hour later in the summer. I dont know whos minhag it is, because the quote in the AR's shulchan aruch says "there are those..."
im really not so knowledgeable about this, I just looked it up and translated it. the only thing I know about it that I keep this.

imanut

Fri, Nov 26 2004, 2:33 pm

I think it's the same time in winter and summer but in the summer it's not an issue since shabbos starts later.

rydys

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 6:36 pm

I found a source! My husband brought this up at the Shabbos table this week!

Minhag Yisrael Torah (a sefer that brings sources for minhagim) brings the source as the Mogen Avraham who says to make kiddush before the night because the beginning of the night of shabbos is mazal ma'adim (ok, I was wrong!) and the end of the sixth day is mazal tzedek so one should make kiddush during tzedek. This is also brought down in the teshuvos of the maharil. The Machatzis Hashekel (which my husband says is one of the main sources for minhagey ashkenaz) says that this mazal is from the sixth hour until the seventh. It doesn't say whether this is 6 oclock to 7 oclock or the sixth to seventh shaos zemanios (halachic hours). The sefer further says that the Oruch Hashulchan says that one does not have to be careful for this bec. we are not under the rule of the mazalos and this reason is0 also brought down in the zohar. The Likutay Maharich says that if someone has poor people by his table who are hungry or thirsty he should not wait to make kiddush because the the mitzva of tzedaka changes din to rachamim. It also says that when Rav Shimon from Yarislav made kiddush during that hour he would say the piyut "Av Harachamim, hu yerachem am amusim..."

The above is my own paraphrase. This is found in Minhag Yisroel Torah, page 73.

Sunshine

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 8:10 pm

So, this means if you have guests at your table you don't have to wait?! I always have those that come to my house for a free Shabbos meal! This is good to know.

Tefila

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 8:32 pm

Quote:

So, this means if you have guests at your table you don't have to wait?! I always have those that come to my house for a free Shabbos meal!

Part of the job Wink

..... and a major compliment too Wink

rydys

Sat, Nov 27 2004, 9:46 pm

I don't know if every guest would count, certainly most of our company does not consist of poor people who are starving, but--the reason this came up this shabbos is my husband got home bet. 6 & 7 and my kids were falling apart so he went to look up which piyut to say to make kiddush.

I also asked him about the wine vs grape juice thing--he said it doesn't make sense to him bec. if it is due to the red color, l'halacha red grape juice is the same as red wine, and yellow wine should be the same as yellow grape juice.

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