Do you buy sold chametz?

amother

Wed, May 08 2024, 1:24 am

We run a chabad house in a remote location and sell kosher food. (groceries and ready made food) Recently a family got stuck here overnight so we sent them some food. Afterwards, they emailed us asking whose ownership the chametz was under, I told them we sold it to a non Jew.

We were both puzzled by this question, (to us it was like asking do we use kosher meat?) so we asked them why they asked this, they told us their Rav told them they had to ask this, furthermore, they usually don't buy chametz that was sold, but since they were stuck, they were allowed to in this case.

I just don't understand how any grocery or food business can manage without selling chametz over pesach. Losses would be huge.

Anyone in the food business who knows of kosher shops who do not sell chametz??? Anyone else follows this halachic ruling? How do you manage??

amother

Lemonchiffon

Wed, May 08 2024, 1:51 am

Yes there are people who don’t sell chometz gamur over pesach and therefore won’t eat chometz that was sold. (Little secret that there are Lubavitchers who also won’t eat chometz sold without an ערב קבלן(

amother

Tangerine

Wed, May 08 2024, 2:29 am

I think bakeries might not sell Chametz gamur - they'll bake everything fresh after Pesach so they can buy from bakeries. They'll buy pasta and other chametz from non-Jewish stores. I think it's an interesting discussion because it leads them to buying from non-Jewish stores. I do nearly all my shopping at Jewish owned stores that definitely sell their Chametz. One just needs to be careful not to buy from Jewish owned stores that don't sell their Chametz.

Brit in Israel

Wed, May 08 2024, 2:37 am

Very common in Israel.
By 2 pm on Isru chag you can get fresh made wafers and biscuits and other food all not sold chometz.
Many makolets from rosh chodesh nissan will not get in any pastas etc and will run out before Pesach so that they don't end up having to sell and be stuck with it with people after Pesach not buying.
We buy sold chometz but many friends in England didn't until shavous some longer.

Brit in Israel

Wed, May 08 2024, 2:40 am

I will add many people I have heard have stopped it and would rather buy something they know has been sold then not knowing during the chain of warehouses whether one of the Jewish not religious owner who didn't sell over Pesach it before it got to a non Jewish store

essie14

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:09 am

I have no idea how you could do this in Israel. Every store that I shop in has an ishur that they sold their chametz and all the chametz shelves were covered all Pesach.

singleagain

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:36 am

I work in a kosher grocery, within the 5 or so days before peach we are one or two post pesach chometz orders. With things like flour, pasta, cereal etc. we put it away till after pesach ... This way it's ready to be put out right away.

We also will not accept any new orders from vendors unless they provide us with their shtar mechira.

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:40 am

Well, I go to the store and buy chametz there. If it happens to be a kosher store, and the chametz happens to have been there before pessach and sold for pessach, how would I know?

Also: if it is a non-jewish super-market that sells kosher products, and it was there before pessach, it would also have been sold before pessach and I would buy it after pessach.

To answer your question: I think it is an illusion that you could avoid chametz that existed over pessach in the whole supply chain. There has to be a certain continuity.
As it was said, it would be completely impossible to operate in Israel without selling chametz, and outside of Israel I don't know of any shops that do it.

Last edited by Comptroller on Wed, May 08 2024, 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:46 am

Comptroller wrote:

Most kosher stores would be clear about how they deal with chometz.

Why would kosher products from a non-Jewish store have been sold before Pesach? Non-Jewish stores have no reason to sell their chometz before Pesach, and you don't necessarily have a way of knowing which products were in the store before Pesach.

Not all kosher foods come directly from frum yidden. I would say most do not. There are many distributors that are Jewish but not frum, and they don't sell their chometz. So it's not so simple to buy from a non-Jewish store.

singleagain

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:48 am

Comptroller wrote:

Well, I go to the store and buy chametz there. If it happens to be a kosher store, and the chametz happens to have been there before pessach and sold for pessach, how would I know?

You can ask to see our shtar mechira. Happy to provide you with it.

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:49 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Presumably, it was produced by a jewish firm, who then sold it to the non-jewish supermarket, where it was over Pessach, from where I bought it after pessach. So it was sold to a non-jew before pessach and I bought it after pessach.

singleagain

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:50 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Not all kosher foods come directly from frum yidden. I would say most do not. There are many distributors that are Jewish but not frum, and they don't sell their chometz. So it's not so simple to buy from a non-Jewish store.

If you're talking about national brands like general Mills, nabsico and Heinz You're prob right. If you're talking about liebers and paskez and Gefen.... That's a different story. Trust me they all sell.

Iymnok

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:52 am

Some chain grocery stores are part owned by Jews. They gave to either sell their ownership or the chometz over pesach. Most have been convinced to do so, but some not.
There is a list somewhere.

Comptroller

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:52 am

singleagain wrote:

You can ask to see our shtar mechira. Happy to provide you with it.

Well I suppose your supermarket is too far away from my place for me to go shopping there.

I rely on the kosher supermarkets in my town that they sell kehalacha.

what I wanted to say: among the things I find in my supermarket, I have no way of knowing which were there before pessach and sold and which were brought in after pessach.

amother

Pumpkin

Wed, May 08 2024, 3:54 am

singleagain wrote:

I would say a majority of the kosher products sold at non-Jewish stores are not from frum companies like Liebers or Paskez. Of course those companies sell, but that still leaves a huge amount of products.

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:14 am

Yes, I have heard of this . Recently I realized that the bakeries, pizza stores and bagel shops are all baking right after pesach so they obviously have flour- which they sold- in order to begin baking right away. If they are selling their flour, I can buy food that was properly sold over pesach.
I live in Lakewood and many grocery stores have sales on chometz items that were sold over pesach. The new items all have a sticker stating that it was baked after pesach.

amother

Geranium

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:16 am

singleagain wrote:

So everyone is buying food that the stores sold over pesach…

amother

Tangerine

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:23 am

amother Geranium wrote:

Flour is not considered Chametz gamur like cake or cookies.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:25 am

We do not sell chametz gamur and we do not buy chametz that was sold. It does limit our shopping options after Pesach but we have a few options.

Currently, we live in Lakewood but we did it when we lived in Israel, too. I know many people that do it. I did not grow up with this chumra, it’s something my dh learned about in yeshiva. He is very careful about it. I try to be careful for me and the kids, but will buy certain things and just mark them that they aren’t for him. I have friends who only are careful for their husbands.

The reason, if I remember correctly, has to do with the fact that selling chametz is loophole/kulla and although the sale is valid halachikly, it is also kind of a joke.

I’m willing to answer any specific questions to the best of my ability.

amother

Royalblue

Wed, May 08 2024, 4:27 am

amother Tangerine wrote:

Flour is not considered Chametz gamur like cake or cookies.

Actually, we were told that these days all regular flour is chametz gamur as they are processed with water at some point.

We do not buy/use sold flour.