Is my father a rosho???

amother

Turquoise

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 7:48 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

No, a Rasha is someone who knows almost as much as the Chochom, but doesn't do what he should do on purpose.

A person who never learned Yiddishkeit properly, whether that they never learned the information, or they learned it in a way that hurt them, cannot be a Rasha. He is either a Tam or a She'aino Yodeia Lishol. (Or, sadly, he might be the son that doesn't even know to come to the seder...)

But the Navi says, "Veheishiv Leiv Avos Al Banim." When this child comes to the seder and does the mitzvos, he is helping his father to IY"H become the Chochom in the next seder.

This is presumptive. My dd's father absolutely knows more than your average cho him and willfully decided to reject Torah and mitzvos. And she knows it. Nice try but you're worse off than you started.

amother

Hosta

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 7:58 am

No. Your father is beloved Jewish child of hashem. He is sadly having nisyonos that are too difficult for him to overcome. But he still a very special person because he is hashem’s child and it doesn’t matter how he behaves, he is still special to you because he is your father.

amother

Diamond

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 8:13 am

OceanRider wrote:

Can I take the liberty to say that leaving religion and being morally corrupt (sx offender) are two vastly different things and cannot be compared?

No.

God, not you, decides which averos to overlook. Just because you believe that being a get refuser has no justification and doing most other averos in the Torah can be overlooked will not change how the Torah views it.

Crookshanks

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 8:59 am

amother Diamond wrote:

I would never tell a child that their father is a rosha but I also would never whitewash his behavior and say that he isn't if he went OTD. Doing so is giving the child the license to go OTD too and blame it on pain or some other excuse.

Think about how you would answer if the father was guilty of something you consider to be terrible like a child molester or a famous get refuser and you were asked you the same question. I'm sure those type of people are in pain too.

I hope you are not a teacher and have nothing to do with children.
Your opinions alone do not make you a terrible person, but if you were to express them to a child you would be a terrible person.

amother

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 10:33 am

amother Turquoise wrote:

Thats it exactly.
I'm very familiar with the situation and that's exactly what she said.
He has told her that not keeping torah is the path he's chosen, he knows what's right and is a learned person.

Saying he's in pain will justify his behaviour without him taking responsibility for his actions as an adult, because this is how she sees him. He isn't a teenager!

Her mother defenetly won't encourage her to view him as a rosho but she wants her to know that each person is responsible for what they do. No labeling people but as a deep thinker her 12 yr old questions... besides all the triggers she feels in the rest of the lessons at this time of the year about traditions, minhogim etc

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 10:51 am

Why do we lie to kids? They should know people choose wrong and do the wrong thing sometimes. It always hurts the child to lie. They aren’t stupid.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:03 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Why do we lie to kids? They should know people choose wrong and do the wrong thing sometimes. It always hurts the child to lie. They aren’t stupid.

Because it’s not a lie.

And it always hurts a child to say something negative about their parent.

amother

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:17 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

Because it’s not a lie.

And it always hurts a child to say something negative about their parent.

At this age, if they are astute, they often figure out the truth, especially if the father is openly saying whatever he said.
Coming from him, speaking about his choices sounds more truthful than being told he's in pain by someone else.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:21 am

amother OP wrote:

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here…

I wasn’t referencing being in pain, as a teacher you’d have no way to know that. I was referring to the line of saying the child’s father is “choosing wrong”. That’s not the kind of thing a teacher should ever say to a 12 year old.

amother

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:26 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

I happen to know that actually as the girl is very vocal, but as a teacher would defenetly not say anything of the sort, and be very very careful what I'd say..... do more listening than saying.
It's a very delicate situation.

amother

Scarlet

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:39 am

amother OP wrote:

That sounds like the best approach…

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:42 am

amother Scarlet wrote:

Because it’s not a lie.

And it always hurts a child to say something negative about their parent.

They see and hear what their father says. Lying about why he stopped keeping the Torah helps no one in the long run. And not sure saying he’s in pain hurts them less.

amother

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:47 am

amother Pumpkin wrote:

They see and hear what their father says. Lying about why he stopped keeping the Torah helps no one in the long run. And not sure saying he’s in pain hurts them less.

It doesn’t help. What does a 12 year old understand by being told her father's in pain if he tells her otherwise? Just confusing.
We as adults may see it in that way.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 11:50 am

amother OP wrote:

It doesn’t help. What does a 12 year old understand by being told her father's in pain if he tells her otherwise? Just confusing.
We as adults may see it in that way.

I don't agree most are in pain. Just because someone doesn't believe in hashem or the torah doesn't mean he's in pain.

WonderIma

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 12:15 pm

There are objective and subjective realities that are not always in line with each other. This is something that a 12 should be able to understand when explained properly. Objectively, the father is doing the wrong thing and is making bad choices and those decisions should not be excused or condoned. But to determine whether he is a rasha or not is more subjective, and only Hashem knows the challenges each person faces and can decide if he is a rasha or not.

WonderIma

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 12:19 pm

mummiedearest wrote:

The answer is absolutely not. The Rasha in the Haggadah is a category that applies to children. The four sons are there to show parents that they have to educate each child according to his needs. This is not Rosh hashana where anyone is being judged by God. Your student cannot and should not see his father in a bad light because of the Haggadah. Kibbud Av still applies to a father who is no longer frum. You can acknowledge that his home situation makes him worry for his father, but his father’s choices are his father’s to worry about.

I really appreciate how you put the 4 sons into perspective. As far as Kibbud Av, IIRC it may not apply to someone who knowingly doesn't keep Mitzvos. I would still want and encourage my child to respect their father as it is usually best for both of them, but it may not be required by the Torah.

amother

Molasses

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 12:20 pm

amother Diamond wrote:

I stopped reading after your first paragraph to respond. Even if her father is not frum that doesn’t make him a rasha. He is absolutely not a rasha (I think very few people fit their category and most of them live in the Middle East).

amother

Molasses

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 12:21 pm

amother Pumpkin wrote:

Why do we lie to kids? They should know people choose wrong and do the wrong thing sometimes. It always hurts the child to lie. They aren’t stupid.

No one is lying. The wrong he is doing doesn’t make him a rasha. Hamas are Reshaim if he isn’t part of Hamas or similar (or engaging in very bad stuff) he isn’t a rasha.

amother

Pumpkin

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 12:26 pm

amother Molasses wrote:

No one is lying. The wrong he is doing doesn’t make him a rasha. Hamas are Reshaim if he isn’t part of Hamas or similar (or engaging in very bad stuff) he isn’t a rasha.

There is a huge spectrum between saying he’s a rasha and sugar coating what he’s doing. He is choosing wrong and he is doing the wrong thing. We do have to be honest about that. Only hashem decides who is a rasha. I don’t agree reshaim are limited to Hamas there are Jews who have done horrific things that would qualify them as reshaim. Just not keeping the Torah doesn’t automatically make one a rasha though.