Is my father a rosho???

amother

Navyblue

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 4:10 am

No, a Rasha is someone who knows almost as much as the Chochom, but doesn't do what he should do on purpose.

A person who never learned Yiddishkeit properly, whether that they never learned the information, or they learned it in a way that hurt them, cannot be a Rasha. He is either a Tam or a She'aino Yodeia Lishol. (Or, sadly, he might be the son that doesn't even know to come to the seder...)

But the Navi says, "Veheishiv Leiv Avos Al Banim." When this child comes to the seder and does the mitzvos, he is helping his father to IY"H become the Chochom in the next seder.

amother

Pink

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 4:25 am

amother Navyblue wrote:

Your last paragraph about veheishiv leiv avos is very nice but I would never say that to a twelve year old. You don’t want to put that responsibility on her young shoulders. She might take it to heart and get the feeling she needs to perfect her mitzva observance in order to bring her father back to the right path. We can always daven and hope but in all likelihood her father will remain unobservant. You don’t want her to feel she’s connected to his behavior. On the contrary, you want her to grow with the feeling that she’s a separate individual who can make her own choices independent of his. She should be free of any feelings of guilt for his bad choices.

Comptroller

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 5:21 am

amother OP wrote:

A 12 year old asked, 'is my father a rosho, he doesn't keep mitzvos, and does all the things the hagodo describes a rosho does?'

Her parents are divorced and father isn't religious.
What do you respond to such a question?

I would send him to a school and environment where he will not be taught, nor told that people who do not keep mitzvos are reshaim. Otherwise, this poor kid will be just split in the middle, like Shlomo hamelech proposed for the baby in the famous story about the two mothers.

ETA:
As a quick response on the spot, I would answer that only hashem can determin who is a rasha and who isn't, since only hashem sees everything a person does. There are many mitzvos, and nobody is perfect and keeps all the mitzvos.

Some mitzvos are bein adam lamakom, they are not our business (except for parents in chinuch towards their children), others are bein adam la chavero.

Those bein adam la makom are often very characteristic for our jewish way of life. So it might be that someone who stops keeping shabbos, kashrus declares by this fact that he does not want to be part of the frum jewish community. But that does not make him a rasha.

On the other hand, you can find people in the community who keep the "community building" mitzvos like shabbos, kashrus very scrupulously, but they don't respect other mitzvos that are just as important, but less "specifically jewish". For example, they might speak lashon hara, they might offend people, steal from other people, steal from the government, appropriate themselves tzedaka when they don't need it. Those people who keep the "visible" mitzvos and don't respect less visible mitzvos are called "hypocrits" or "bigots". So here he has an occasion not to judge according to appearances.

Last edited by Comptroller on Fri, Apr 12 2024, 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total

ora_43

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 5:28 am

Teachers should act as if their pupils have a family member OTD, possibly a family member who isn't Jewish. (You'd be surprised at some of the families with non-Jewish cousins.)

I think I'd say something like:
It's more complicated than that. Whether someone is a rasha depends a lot on what they know and what's in their heart. These behaviors are examples of what a rasha might do, but not everyone who does it is necessarily a rasha. We can't really know what's in someone else's heart, or how many zchuyot they have.

But our tafkid is the same either way. We need to do mitzvot and treat others well; what they do is their own responsibility.

*
If she sounds worried, I'd add "I don't think your father is a rasha" to the first part ('we can't know how many zchuyot people have - but no, I don't think your father is a rasha'). OTOH if the behaviors in question are interpersonal - like, a person who is always angry, or who threatens other people - I wouldn't add that, and I would try to gently find out more about her relationship with her father, whether she's scared of him, etc.

Elfrida

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 6:41 am

amother OP wrote:

A 12 year old asked, 'is my father a rosho, he doesn't keep mitzvos, and does all the things the hagodo describes a rosho does?'

The hagaddah does not describe the actions of a rasha at any length.

רשע מה הוא אומר, מה העבודה הזאת לכם, לכם ולא לו, ולפי שהוציא את עצמו מן הכלל כפר בעיקר, ואף אתה הקהה את שיניו ואמור לו בעבור זה עשה ה' לי בצאתי ממצרים לי ולא לו, אילו היה שם לא היה נגאל".

The two defining characteristics are removing himself from the community, and being כופר בעיקר.

A twelve year old is often seeing things in black and white. If her father has left the community, either physically or spiritually, she would see him as fitting into that category. You would need to help her find the grey area, of having some connection to the community. He might not be frum, but any mitzvah he does perform is some link, that means he hasn't completely abandoned frum life, and has some contact with the community. Does he eat matzah on Pesach? Have some kind of Seder? Light chanukah candles? Give charity? Anything like that is a link to the community, and a sign that he doesn't put himself completely outside.

כופר בעיקר is maybe harder to give an exact definition, but a good working definition would be that he actively denies all thirteen of the Rambams principles. He might not think about them, or even care about them, but if he is not actively denying them from a position of knowledge and understanding, he isn't being כופר בעיקר.

You can agree that he father is struggling, and isn't in the best place, but doesn't meet the full definition of a rasha, who would have been left in Mitzrayim.

Maybe she needs to be able to see her father in the position of the תם, who isn't ready for complex questions. Maybe able to accept the fact of Yetziat Mitzrayim, but not willing to see that it has any relation to his own life three thousand years later, or that it obligates him in anything.

amother

Wine

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 7:49 am

I'm a teacher and have a close family member who is no longer frum.

I would say something along the lines of:
It's not our place to judge people, that's between them and Hashem. Everyone has different nisyonos and life and different people struggle with different things.

And then offer to speak to the pupil further after class, or refer them to someone who they would be able to get more support from.

Incidentally, I'm wondering what was taught about The Rosha in the hagaddah that made the child think her father is one. I teach that the Rosha asks questions to poke fun and isn't interested in the answer. I also explain that the reply of "blunting his teeth" is not one that would necessarily by used nowadays, as people have changed and methods of chinuch and kiruv have changed. I also point out that nobody is any particular 1 of the 4 sons, people are a blend and have different aspects to them.

mummiedearest

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 8:06 am

The answer is absolutely not. The Rasha in the Haggadah is a category that applies to children. The four sons are there to show parents that they have to educate each child according to his needs. This is not Rosh hashana where anyone is being judged by God. Your student cannot and should not see his father in a bad light because of the Haggadah. Kibbud Av still applies to a father who is no longer frum. You can acknowledge that his home situation makes him worry for his father, but his father’s choices are his father’s to worry about.

amother

Diamond

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 8:19 am

I would never tell a child that their father is a rosha but I also would never whitewash his behavior and say that he isn't if he went OTD. Doing so is giving the child the license to go OTD too and blame it on pain or some other excuse.

Think about how you would answer if the father was guilty of something you consider to be terrible like a child molester or a famous get refuser and you were asked you the same question. I'm sure those type of people are in pain too.

Comptroller

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 9:25 am

amother Diamond wrote:

Why do you call someone who went OTD a rasha?

In my view, this is wrong reasoning.
Plus: You are completely mistaken if you think that condemning the father who went OTD will keep the son from going OTD.

As I said: I think it's important to protect the child from people who express those kinds of opinions.

OceanRider

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 10:00 am

amother Diamond wrote:

Think about how you would answer if the father was guilty of something you consider to be terrible like a child molester or a famous get refuser and you were asked you the same question. I'm sure those type of people are in pain too.

Can I take the liberty to say that leaving religion and being morally corrupt (sx offender) are two vastly different things and cannot be compared?

amother

Pansy

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 10:12 am

Please don’t give her an answer that makes assumptions about her father! You could be giving her confirmation that he is a rasha-
For example if you say he’s a tinok shenishba, or he doesn’t know better- he may have once been a top Yeshiva bochur and she knows that he knows better
If you tell her he’s in pain- she may see a man who’s happier and more settled than he’d ever been when religious

amother

Pink

Fri, Apr 12 2024, 10:14 am

OceanRider wrote:

Can I take the liberty to say that leaving religion and being morally corrupt (sx offender) are two vastly different things and cannot be compared?

They’re for sure two completely different things but we can’t compare. We have many discussions here where women try to compare one mitzva to another or one aveira to another. If you talk about women who don’t feel comfortable observing laws of tznius, they’ll say oh but lashon hara is much worse. We don’t actually know what’s better or worse. As human beings we recoil from certain sins like the one you mentioned, and we commit sins that in our own eyes don’t seem that big. It’s the same as we’d recoil from a harmless, very disgusting looking large insect but wouldn’t hesitate to touch a screen in an airport with a deadly virus on it, because we can’t see the virus.
Leaving mitzva observance entirely is a very sad thing. It can be very confusing and painful for a child to see that. We don’t want to minimize the sin but we don’t want to cause the child any more pain. My first reaction would have been to give the child a short, quick answer, no of course your father’s not a rasha. Then I’d have to find out more about the child’s situation at home and take time to have a longer one on one with her and maybe refer her to someone who can help her through this if I get the feeling it’s needed.