S/O don’t take handouts just because they’re availabile

renslet

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 2:27 pm

amother OP wrote:

I know someone who is a gemach expert. “You can get this from A, and that from B” “They give …” It’s all about taking everything one can.

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True, and I think this is terrible if they are being dishonest or lying. But we really don't know.
When Halacha says to give a gvir who becomes impoverished what he is used to, I think there's a lesson there.
Just because I don't need something or I can manage without doesn't mean that someone else can.
Maybe it's got to do with shalom bayis, or mental health or not knowing any other way, but the vast majority of people that I know who receive genuinely believe that they need the stuff and that it helps.
On the flip side, I really really don't want anyone who does need to NOT take because they are unsure if they are deserving. I would prefer a few people get who don't 100% need and make it easier and simpler for people who may find it hard to ask to have an easier time

amother

Blue

Thu, Apr 04 2024, 2:33 pm

It depends on where you're taking from

I know a rav who runs a non income based food bank, so it's open to anyone who comes. they always say they wish more jewish people would make use of it, because those are the people they most want to help. no one should take food to throw it out, but it's for anyone who will use it, not only if they NEED it. (also a lot of it is produce and it goes bad if not enough people come that day.)

There are also certain offers that are given to kollel families and specify that they're regardless of income. you may believe that that's a bad use of funds (or whatever they're getting), but the fact is that people chose to sponsor something for that population. our rav said, there is no issue with taking even if you don't need it. if you feel that you don't WANT to be a taker and that it's important to you not to take it, then there's something nice about that. but that for most people, it is right and fine to take it if it's meant for them, so there's no reason to discourage anyone from taking or feel bad if you do take it.

amother

DarkCyan

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:02 am

amother OP wrote:

I know someone who is a gemach expert. “You can get this from A, and that from B” “They give …” It’s all about taking everything one can.

THIS. I once heard a neighbor tell someone that she offered a hand-me-down, almost new, boys suit to a family and the mother said no thank you because her young son (under bar mitzvah) got a new suit from an organization for yom tov and he'll be getting another one in a couple of months from another organization that provides free suits to siblings of a chosson/kallah.

My son who is a teenager is lucky to get a new suit once a year IF his is really small.

amother

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:05 am

Ruchel wrote:

Yes and no.
Don't go ASKING if you don't need.
But if someone put your name on the list, why not? and you can give what you don't need, as we do.
In my country, if Rothschild has children, Rothschild gets money.

Gets money from who? The money is not coming from some nameless faceless black hole. It’s from hardworking people like you and me who sacrifice so others can meet their needs.

If it’s a handout to a kollel or teachers in a school to show appreciation that’s one thing. But if it’s a chessed organization that happens to have you on a list, and you need it, by all means take. But if you don’t, please don’t take just because it’s there.

amother

Cobalt

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:26 am

I have a close relationship with a women, I won't say what the relationship is. She's divorced and has older kids. She lives in a city with a lot of chessed. She signs up for every single organization she can qualify for, which is her choice obviously. She happens to be very comfortable, she travels to Israel twice a year, she lives in a million dollar house. She makes thousand dollar donations on very public chesedfund crowdfunders often. And she is the first one with her hand out when she hears of free things for single moms, and her teenage daughters are so embarrassed, because she talks about it all the time to so many people.

I think there is a real sickness people have where they get a kick out of getting free programs. On the one hand, if it's free and there is no financial requirement, why shouldn't she get it? On the other hand, the money is not endless and it's coming from somewhere. I dont know.

amother

Butterscotch

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 10:45 am

Six months ago my sister was sitting in her beautiful huge succah and proudly telling us how there was a philanthropist in the community who was giving free meat to qualified families. Although she didn't qualify, she called up her cousin who works with the philanthropist and got special permission. She sent her son to pick up the food, but he wasn't allowed in because he didn't have a ticket.
She again called her cousin who made the whole organization stop and help him. So dozens of families in need were forced to wait while her family was given royal treatment.

And she was so proud of herself.
Thought I was lazy and beyond stupid for my choice to simply buy more chicken and just a little meat that yt.

amother

Peru

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 12:00 pm

amother Cobalt wrote:

It’s probably less about the free stuff and more about feeling provided for and cared for in her vulnerable situation. Same reason I’ll donate to an organization that gives gift cards for new clothing for yt for orphans when my own kids are wearing hand me downs. They BH have the stability and love of two parents and don’t need “stuff” to prove it to them/ help them feel less of an outcast

amother

Cobalt

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 12:25 pm

amother Peru wrote:

I really appreciate this response. You've just given me the best way to see this situation.

Ruchel

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 12:52 pm

amother OP wrote:

Money arrives on your account; NO ONE refuses it. I literally don't know ONE person who says like heh state take money back LOL.

As for the list yes you could ask to be off, or bring back the package if delivered. We have decided not to, and we share what we don't use. Obviously someone decided we need it if our name made it on the list without us even asking.

SYA

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 12:54 pm

Most people aren’t comfortable being a taker. They may look like they’re living it up but are really struggling.
An acquaintance dresses very simple and an upscale boutique wouldn’t service her. She tried telling them she’s wealthy and can probably buy out the store but they sent her out.
Meanwhile her friend who dresses classy but a lot is gifts or second hand was invited into the boutique. Her friend is struggling and couldn’t even afford one item. Looks can be very deceiving.

I know people who can’t afford a doona and won’t buy it new. They’ll purchase it second hand at a fraction of the price or it’ll be gifted to them. Not everyone with a high end stroller purchased it. The same goes for many other luxuries.

So if you see someone taking, don’t assume they’re a schnorrer. Maybe give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they’re really struggling financially and are hiding it because they’re embarrassed.

renslet

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 12:55 pm

amother Peru wrote:

On a recent links fundraiser, they shared a letter (with permission) of a woman who said just that. She said that her husband had left her lots of money to buy what she wants but when she gets gift cards for Yom Tov from them, it's literally the only time that someone buys something for her (since her husband died) instead of her buying it for herself.

To be honest most people I know who get stuff, even if they are not penniless definitely get helped, they are not sending 1000 dollar donations. Something here seems a little off, especially since the women talks about it all day AND her teens are embarrassed

amother

Phlox

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 1:21 pm

amother OP wrote:

I’m not, though I believe Rav Meir Stern from Passaic tells his talmidim not to take government programs. I believe one of his main reasons is that it’s virtually impossible to do in a yashrushdik way. You need to be creative with bank accounts, parental help, cash, etc to maximize programs and he believes it incentivizes people to act “Krum”. Others disagree. My OP is focused on community gemachs and organizations.

Did he clarify the other part? People who are on government programs are often lower income and wouldn't be able to afford the things they are receiving benefits for without the benefits. What should they do?

amother

Freesia

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 1:23 pm

renslet wrote:

This lady is obviously mentally unwell. No need to make up theories around her behavior.
(the rich lady who takes every handout !)

amother

Phlox

Fri, Apr 05 2024, 1:26 pm

amother OP wrote:

I’m hearing so may Imamothers talk about tzedaka and Chessed organizations as if it’s a mitzvah to take everything and anything you qualify for. Some even complain about the quality of the food they receive or the fact that donors don’t allocate more money toward the subgroup of society they are in.

Please please change you attitude! There should be pride in not taking even if one is eligible. It will serve you well in the long term instead of being trapped in limiting tzedaka and social programs, afraid to increase one’s earning potential for fear of being locked out of those programs.

The mishna in Peah tells us:
וכל מי שאינו צריך ליטול ונוטל, אינו נפטר מן העולם עד שיצטרך לבריות.
וכל מי שצריך ליטול ואינו נוטל, אינו מת מן הזקנה, עד שיפרנס אחרים משלו, ועליו הכתוב אומר (ירמיה יז): ברוך הגבר אשר יבטח בה' והיה ה' מבטחו

One who doesn’t truly need to take from tzedaka yet takes, eventually will become truly needy. One who needs to take but pushes himself, and doesn’t take, will eventually go on to support others instead.

Rabbi Akiva says עשה שבתך חול ואל תצטרך לבריות. Rather have a weekday shabbos meal than take tzedaka.

Of course, there are truly desperate people out there and by all means they should not be embarrassed in any way to take what is offered, they should be encouraged. But this attitude of what can I get and what gemachs am I eligible for is doing our community a major disservice on so many levels.

Op, I think it's best to respond to the person on the thread you saw this. Everyone here on your thread seems to agree with you. So nobody is really benefitting from this and there's no practical discussion about a specific situation.

Which thread did you see ima's talking like it's a mitzvah to take stuff?