People who can barely afford basics are not middle class.

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Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

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amother

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:00 pm

If you're jealous of poor people who receive help, you're not middle class, you're also poor, only above the official poverty line.

amother

Strawberry

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:01 pm

And? What are you trying to say here?

amother

Pansy

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:01 pm

It’s officially called middle class.

amother

Amber

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:05 pm

amother OP wrote:

If you're jealous of poor people who receive help, you're not middle class, you're also poor, only above the official poverty line.

I'm not jealous and it's called poor middle class for a reason.

amother

Dahlia

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:07 pm

Your level of expenses isn't what determines your status. There are wealthy people who accrue debt and can't pay their bills as well.

I'm not saying it's easy to be in that position. It's a challenge, especially since extravagance is not the reason for the financial struggles.

amother

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:08 pm

amother Pansy wrote:

It’s officially called middle class.

It's not, though. People here use "middle class" to mean "poor above the poverty line" when middle class spans all the way to "upper middle class," which is quite wealthy.

amother

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:08 pm

It's also often part of this narrative that the people who are poor under the poverty line are raking it in with the tzedaka they get. That's simply not the case.

amother

Celeste

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:12 pm

amother OP wrote:

If you're jealous of poor people who receive help, you're not middle class, you're also poor, only above the official poverty line.

YES! Especially in the frum world where we also pay tuition, on top of all our other expenses.

amother

Celeste

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:14 pm

amother Dahlia wrote:

The government includes family size when calculating poverty, why do you need to be "frummer" than the government? And yes, tuition should be factored in as well.

amother

Pansy

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:14 pm

amother OP wrote:

It's not, though. People here use "middle class" to mean "poor above the poverty line" when middle class spans all the way to "upper middle class," which is quite wealthy.

There are literally charts with class names. We are officially a middle class income and we can’t make ends meet with inflation and basic kosher food and tuition. We are still middle class. Doesn’t change anything.

amother

Tomato

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:15 pm

I think for frum families it should be government numbers +50 to 100k because of tuition, kosher, tznius etc

amother

Amber

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:15 pm

amother OP wrote:

It's not, though. People here use "middle class" to mean "poor above the poverty line" when middle class spans all the way to "upper middle class," which is quite wealthy.

There's poor middle class & upper middle class. Poor middle class are poor but don't qualify for any benefits. It's way harder if one lives a frum lifestyle.

amother

Amber

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:17 pm

OP, I'm curious if you're poor middle class, or do you receive government benefits?

amother

DarkOrange

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:21 pm

That doesn't make sense. A family of 4 making 120k can be struggling to afford basics but that's still not classified as poor.

amother

Jean

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:22 pm

amother OP wrote:

It's also often part of this narrative that the people who are poor under the poverty line are raking it in with the tzedaka they get. That's simply not the case.

No but they’re more likely to qualify for tzeddakah and tuition breaks without having to justify where their money is going.

The problem with middle class is that on paper, it looks like they’re making a decent income. Someone who’s earning 100k is in theory earning double someone who’s earning 50k. In reality, between taxes, insurance, tuition breaks, childcare and tzeddakah, the first person is going to struggle a lot more to pay for pesach (and other expenses) than the second.

It’s really hard to see it until you’re actually in that category.

amother

Blushpink

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:25 pm

Curious what we consider the "poverty line" here.

We are a family of 13 making over $120k. To be at the federal poverty limit, we'd need to be making under $80k.

amother

Lemonchiffon

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:35 pm

The middle class used to mean you can buy a three bedroom house and a car or two by the time you were thirty. This was on one salary. Can you imagine?

amother

DarkViolet

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:35 pm

amother Tomato wrote:

I think for frum families it should be government numbers +50 to 100k because of tuition, kosher, tznius etc

100%
I really think theres a disconnect. Yes according to the government these people may all be middle class, but they don't know our lifestyle. The classifications honestly mean nothing to frum families.
Lower middle class non Jews generally don't send to private schools. That's for upper middle and wealthy.

Frum World needs a different classification system. Totally different numbers.
I seriously think someone who is in finance should make an actual chart of the different financial classes in the frum world. And even that is so different depending where you live.

amother

Blushpink

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:38 pm

amother DarkViolet wrote:

It would have to account for:
- when you bought or rented (average rent/mortgage in your area at that time)
- actual charged tuition (there are far too many variables otherwise)
- kashrus restrictions (a larger food allotment for those who only eat heimishe hechsherim, cholov yisroel, etc.)

It would be very helpful though to have that number for organizations to target help better.

amother

NeonOrange

Wed, Apr 03 2024, 1:56 pm

It’s the lower middle class that suffers the most financially.

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