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amother
OP
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 Sun, Mar 31 2024, 2:25 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0XXUvZeG88
I would have posted these questions by the comments, but comments are disabled on YouTube.
I'm hoping that others that know him personally/or how to contact him can clarify some things.
Apparently a civil divorce was already given in 2020- if that is the case, what right does he have to withhold a get? Weren't all terms already finalized in the civil divorce?
Even for the people who claim that withholding get is fair because a man might not have any recourse in arbitration, what could possibly be the excuse here?
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amother
Begonia
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Sat, Apr 06 2024, 11:20 pm
I found it fascinating that when get refuser activists get on a case the "victim" (women) is forced to come to being din, which is something many of these women refuse to do when asked by the ex husband. There proper halacha ruling is issued items withheld by the women are returned and things get resolved easily and a get is given.
Example: recently a man who was the sole provider for his family bought a house and paid the mortgage. They separated and the woman refused to leave the "family" home. He kept paying for years and offered a get in exchange for His house back. She refused because she and her kids loved the house it where her kids grew and are growing up. Female activists finally got and screamed... publicly shamed him.... when she finally agreed to go to being din, the woman was ordered to move out and return the home to the halachic rightful owner.... the ex husband. The moment she moved out, she got her get.
Had the husband stopped paying for the home, his credit would be ruined and he would have lost all the money he put in. He had no other way of getting his property back. Thankfully due to these activists, women are forced to abide by Torah law and halachic rulings.
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amother
Wallflower
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Sat, Apr 06 2024, 11:32 pm
| amother Begonia wrote: | I found it fascinating that when get refuser activists get on a case the "victim" (women) is forced to come to being din, which is something many of these women refuse to do when asked by the ex husband. There proper halacha ruling is issued items withheld by the women are returned and things get resolved easily and a get is given.
Example: relentless a man who was the sole provider for his family bought a house and paid the mortgage. They separated and the woman refused to leave the "family" home. He kept paying for years and offered a get in exchange for His house back. She refused because she and her kids loved the house it where her kids grew and are growing up. Female activists finally got and screamed... publicly shamed him.... when she finally agreed to go to being din, the woman was ordered to move out and return the home to the halachic rightful owner.... the ex husband. The moment she moved out, she got her get.
Had the husband stopped paying for the home, his credit would be ruined and he would have lost all the money he put in. He had no other way of getting his property back. Thankfully due to these activists, women are forced to abide by Torah law and halachic rulings. |
Why did he have no way to get his house back? What did they make up in court (re house ownership)? If he was awarded sole ownership of the house by the courts why couldn’t he get her out?
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seeker
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Sat, Apr 06 2024, 11:39 pm
Legally she was probably entitled to half the house. If he bought it while they were married then it's marital property even if he paid for it. Same for savings accounts, etc.
But as stated above this would have been worked out in the civil judgement so there should be nothing left to discuss by the get.
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amother
Begonia
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Sat, Apr 06 2024, 11:46 pm
When women chose to go to court rather than beis din, they receive the non Jewish ruling that includes a a divorce. So yes, according to the court all is done and over with. No issues left they can all move on.
If she wants a halacha Get she must come to beis din and abide by Hashem's rules.
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chestnut
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:00 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | I found it fascinating that when get refuser activists get on a case the "victim" (women) is forced to come to being din, which is something many of these women refuse to do when asked by the ex husband. There proper halacha ruling is issued items withheld by the women are returned and things get resolved easily and a get is given.
Example: recently a man who was the sole provider for his family bought a house and paid the mortgage. They separated and the woman refused to leave the "family" home. He kept paying for years and offered a get in exchange for His house back. She refused because she and her kids loved the house it where her kids grew and are growing up. Female activists finally got and screamed... publicly shamed him.... when she finally agreed to go to being din, the woman was ordered to move out and return the home to the halachic rightful owner.... the ex husband. The moment she moved out, she got her get.
Had the husband stopped paying for the home, his credit would be ruined and he would have lost all the money he put in. He had no other way of getting his property back. Thankfully due to these activists, women are forced to abide by Torah law and halachic rulings. |
The man didn't buy a house by himself while he was married, even if he was a breadwinner. This is your mistaken thinking.
They bought a house as a couple and it belonged to both of them.
What was the court's decision in regards to their shared property?
What you seem to be saying here is that his ex-wife had to forgo her half of the house in order to receive her get.
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amother
Begonia
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:07 am
| chestnut wrote: | The man didn't buy a house by himself while he was married, even if he was a breadwinner. This is your mistaken thinking.
They bought a house as a couple and it belonged to both of them.
What was the court's decision in regards to their shared property?
What you seem to be saying here is that his ex-wife had to forgo her half of the house in order to receive her get. |
She clearly refused to move out and kept the entire house for herself. He didn't want to use police to remove his children without a place to stay. So as long as she was his halachic wife, he allowed her to stay. The ball was in her court but she, wanted it all.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:11 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | I found it fascinating that when get refuser activists get on a case the "victim" (women) is forced to come to being din, which is something many of these women refuse to do when asked by the ex husband. There proper halacha ruling is issued items withheld by the women are returned and things get resolved easily and a get is given.
Example: recently a man who was the sole provider for his family bought a house and paid the mortgage. They separated and the woman refused to leave the "family" home. He kept paying for years and offered a get in exchange for His house back. She refused because she and her kids loved the house it where her kids grew and are growing up. Female activists finally got and screamed... publicly shamed him.... when she finally agreed to go to being din, the woman was ordered to move out and return the home to the halachic rightful owner.... the ex husband. The moment she moved out, she got her get.
Had the husband stopped paying for the home, his credit would be ruined and he would have lost all the money he put in. He had no other way of getting his property back. Thankfully due to these activists, women are forced to abide by Torah law and halachic rulings. |
Your attitude to this is astounding. If a woman agrees to marry a man, and they agree that she'll stay home and raise their children while he earns money, the money is all his? You consider him the "sole" provider? Who's carrying his children for him? Who's birthing them? Who's caring for them every day? Your argument only begins to hold any water if he financially compensated her what you would pay a surrogate to carry each child for you, what you would pay a housekeeper for every year they took care of your house and children - at *her* price. And that's only the beginning.
You put "family" in quotes around family home. I have no clue what kind of normal woman believes that such a home belongs exclusively to the man in a relationship. Thank God I don't know people who talk this way in real life. And imagine the kind of "man" who gives not a whit to forcing his children out of their home. Disgusting.
Did you attend the bet din to know that it was a halachic ruling? Sometimes when a man simply refuses the bet din can encourage a woman to give in simply because her get will make her happier in the long run. My mind is boggled that there's supposedly a frum woman on here who thinks that a housewife who bore and raised a bunch of children for her husband should be forced to give up their shelter in order to get a get. I can't think of anyone who thinks this way other than an abuser or their flying monkeys.
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seeker
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:12 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | When women chose to go to court rather than beis din, they receive the non Jewish ruling that includes a a divorce. So yes, according to the court all is done and over with. No issues left they can all move on.
If she wants a halacha Get she must come to beis din and abide by Hashem's rules. |
Bh I'm in NY where the courts recognize the importance of a get and include it in the secular divorce, which has a clause stating that all barriers to remarriage have been removed before the judge approves the rest.
Hashem's rules include following the law of the land in certain civil matters that I'm fairly sure would apply here. They surely wouldn't sanction going against a signed contract about property allocation. In wrapping up the civil divorce, he would have agreed to the terms therein, so if that included dividing their assets then I don't think bes din could override that.
Eta that when I say "they" wouldn't sanction, I'm talking about "Hashem's laws" not the beis din which is supposed to enforce them and sometimes doesn't.
Last edited by seeker on Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:14 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | | She clearly refused to move out and kept the entire house for herself. He didn't want to use police to remove his children without a place to stay. So as long as she was his halachic wife, he allowed her to stay. The ball was in her court but she, wanted it all. |
Disgusting. Abusive. Nothing to do with finances or paying off the mortgage. As long as he had halachic control over her, he "allowed" her access to shelter. I can't believe you actually defend this, although at least you have enough shame to hide behind amother for this.
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amother
Begonia
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:22 am
| WhatFor wrote: | | Disgusting. Abusive. Nothing to do with finances or paying off the mortgage. As long as he had halachic control over her, he "allowed" her access to shelter. I can't believe you actually defend this, although at least you have enough shame to hide behind amother for this. |
You feeling doesn't trump halacha.
In Israel the system is different. The court in the beis din. Once both sides are clearly heard and halacha is ruled, a get is given. If the man refuses to give a get without merit, he goes to jail u til agrees to give a get, he loses his job, if he volunteered for an organization they are ordered to remove him and they follow ruling.
In general the systemin Israel is also much more fair to both sides. Children are half week at each parent so no child support is needed in most cases, homes are sold and both take half (or one buys it out) etc.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:27 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | | She clearly refused to move out and kept the entire house for herself. He didn't want to use police to remove his children without a place to stay. So as long as she was his halachic wife, he allowed her to stay. The ball was in her court but she, wanted it all. |
I seriously can't believe how you can write this. Let's break it down.
First sentence: "She clearly refused to move out and kept the entire house for herself." Okay, sounds not great.
Second sentence: "He didn't want to use police to remove his children without a place to stay." wait a second. Didn't you just say she kept the entire house for herself? You mean for her kids? Who, in your own words, would have no place to stay if they were forced out? Oh, so your first sentence was a lie. We can disregard that. What a nice guy that he "didn't want to" call the police, who would never ever kick a woman and her children out of her home just because her ex husband claims it's his but has zero court order to back up his claim. He was so kind not to use the police to force her and her children out with nowhere to go, but decided to weaponize her get and the bet din to do so. What a mentch. Lucky there are anonymous people on the internet who definitely aren't him or his relatives to support him, otherwise who would be there to defend the poor abusers.
Third and fourth sentences: "So as long as she was his halachic wife, he allowed her to stay. The ball was in her court but she, wanted it all." I've already addressed how revolting this is in my prior post.
It's amazing how much is revealed in only four sentences.
I hope that she and her children are okay and have a support system, and are very far away from him and anyone who supports him.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:32 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | You feeling doesn't trump halacha.
In Israel the system is different. The court in the beis din. Once both sides are clearly heard and halacha is ruled, a get is given. If the man refuses to give a get without merit, he goes to jail u til agrees to give a get, he loses his job, if he volunteered for an organization they are ordered to remove him and they follow ruling.
In general the systemin Israel is also much more fair to both sides. Children are half week at each parent so no child support is needed in most cases, homes are sold and both take half (or one buys it out) etc. |
You've never cited a single Halacha in defending his abuse. All you said was that a man withheld a woman's get until she gave up what was otherwise her and her children's right to shelter. Because, in your own words, her ex refused to release her from their marriage until she did so. There's zero Halacha that requires a woman to do that in order to get a get.
Keep lying and trying to exploit the Torah to defend abuse (otherwise called religious abuse). No one is buying what you're trying to sell except abusers and their enablers. Enjoy supporting abusers. Luckily, there's way more frum people out there keeping the Torah l'shma and not to fulfill their narcissistic needs for control.
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amother
Amethyst
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:33 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | I found it fascinating that when get refuser activists get on a case the "victim" (women) is forced to come to being din, which is something many of these women refuse to do when asked by the ex husband. There proper halacha ruling is issued items withheld by the women are returned and things get resolved easily and a get is given.
Example: recently a man who was the sole provider for his family bought a house and paid the mortgage. They separated and the woman refused to leave the "family" home. He kept paying for years and offered a get in exchange for His house back. She refused because she and her kids loved the house it where her kids grew and are growing up. Female activists finally got and screamed... publicly shamed him.... when she finally agreed to go to being din, the woman was ordered to move out and return the home to the halachic rightful owner.... the ex husband. The moment she moved out, she got her get.
Had the husband stopped paying for the home, his credit would be ruined and he would have lost all the money he put in. He had no other way of getting his property back. Thankfully due to these activists, women are forced to abide by Torah law and halachic rulings. |
This story doesn't really make sense the way you have written it? What happened at their civil divorce? Did the judge rule the house was solely his or a shared asset? It's highly unlikely he got the entire house at the Civil divorce. BTW as the breadwinner he probably did owe her alimony and a share of his assets. I have a friend (not frum) who is in the process of getting divorced and she needs to pay her ex alimony because she was the breadwinner all the years they were married. Even though they don't have children.
Either way, something sounds very off, as a beis din doesn't usually do that sort of ruling, they basically stick to the actual get procedure. Perhaps you don't have the full story in this case.
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amother
Skyblue
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 12:49 am
| amother OP wrote: | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0XXUvZeG88
I would have posted these questions by the comments, but comments are disabled on YouTube.
I'm hoping that others that know him personally/or how to contact him can clarify some things.
Apparently a civil divorce was already given in 2020- if that is the case, what right does he have to withhold a get? Weren't all terms already finalized in the civil divorce?
Even for the people who claim that withholding get is fair because a man might not have any recourse in arbitration, what could possibly be the excuse here? |
I don't know this guy nor do I think that withholding is ever fair.
But I do know another get refuser, although we haven't had contact with him since beis din put him in cherem.
He's deeply unhealthy and probably a sociopath. His wife was warned by many people not to marry him.
Now he says that his wife clearly can't be trusted to make good choices when it comes to husbands and their children will suffer if she marries another sociopath.
He agrees it's better for the kids for him to be out of the house but he has to make sure she doesn't remarry until they are grown.
I had nothing to say in response except to talk about how he has to trust Hashem, and he can't expect good results when he's going against beis din. He doesn't really believe in yiddishkeit any longer, so that didn't help much.
Is that his real reason, or is he just looking for an excuse to trap his wife? I don't know. But there is some twisted logic to his argument.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 1:08 am
| amother Skyblue wrote: | I don't know this guy nor do I think that withholding is ever fair.
But I do know another get refuser, although we haven't had contact with him since beis din put him in cherem.
He's deeply unhealthy and probably a sociopath. His wife was warned by many people not to marry him.
Now he says that his wife clearly can't be trusted to make good choices when it comes to husbands and their children will suffer if she marries another sociopath.
He agrees it's better for the kids for him to be out of the house but he has to make sure she doesn't remarry until they are grown.
I had nothing to say in response except to talk about how he has to trust Hashem, and he can't expect good results when he's going against beis din. He doesn't really believe in yiddishkeit any longer, so that didn't help much.
Is that his real reason, or is he just looking for an excuse to trap his wife? I don't know. But there is some twisted logic to his argument. |
To the bolded, he's stating his real reason, which is to entrap his wife so she can't marry anyone else. He's an abuser. Of course he's saying it's "for the good of the kids", but is it ever for the good of children for their mother to be forcibly married to an abuser? Of course not. You said he's probably a sociopath. I'd stick with that instinct.
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chestnut
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 1:09 am
| amother Begonia wrote: | | She clearly refused to move out and kept the entire house for herself. He didn't want to use police to remove his children without a place to stay. So as long as she was his halachic wife, he allowed her to stay. The ball was in her court but she, wanted it all. |
1. Who decided that she was supposed to move out and not he?
2. He "allowed" her to stay? It was her house as much as his. You clearly don't understand this.
3. Regarding their children, are you saying that he wanted her to move out with the kids, but because she wasn't moving out with them, he was kind enough not to call police "to remove his children without a place to stay"?
Please tell me I misunderstood each point.
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amother
Begonia
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 1:10 am
To all above: let's support our sisters, the easy answer is go to beis din as the Torah says. You have a Jewish marriage contract that you want to end. Do it the proper Torah way. YOU deserve it. Money and material things aren't worth your fight. There are no winners on divorce but your mental heth is worth much more. I've see
Women who gave in for the sake of Shalom and second marriage was all worth it. Hashem repays many times more.
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amother
Snowflake
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 1:15 am
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dunno, my sister was left with the shirt on her back (not even) for the sake of getting a get.
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WhatFor
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Sun, Apr 07 2024, 1:18 am
| chestnut wrote: | 1. Who decided that she was supposed to move out and not he?
2. He "allowed" her to stay? It was her house as much as his. You clearly don't understand this.
3. Regarding their children, are you saying that he wanted her to move out with the kids, but because she wasn't moving out with them, he was kind enough not to call police "to remove his children without a place to stay"?
Please tell me I misunderstood each point. |
I don't think you misunderstood anything.
And now amother begonia is unironically talking out both sides of their mouth, saying women should "give in for the sake of shalom" when she just spent multiple posts trash talking a poor abused woman with children who seems to have done just that.
News flash to her: many agunahs don't even have that option. The ones that do are forced to decide between what's best and healthy for the children and getting their get.
There's no need to stay confused. That poster blatantly supports and enables abusive men.
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