Mishpacha Double Take

amother

Alyssum

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 6:08 am

amother Lightgray wrote:

I don't send my girls to seminary, so I'm really just asking our of curiosity.

I understand a a seminary needing to know, but does that mean a girl should be automatically rejected? I would imagine that if the hanhala knows before hand they can have strategies in place for dealing with potential problems. I'm not talking about girls with known, severe mental health and or social issues, just girls that may struggle a little and need more support. It just seems a bit unfair that these girls are cancelled off the bat....

The seminary needs to know so they can decide if they are equipped to handle such situations. There were plenty of "socially off" girls with me in seminary, but only one on that level. In the article it did sound like it was more than just plain social issues, it used the word "enmeshed" which would denote a higher level of dysfunction, which can really mess with the dynamics in a seminary.

amother

Whitewash

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 7:15 am

amother Alyssum wrote:

I'm not sure how old you are or what your experience with seminary is, but I can tell you as someone who has been in seminary within the past few years, if a girl is emotionally unhealthy and has a history of creating these clingy, needy friendships, the seminary needs to know from the get-go. I know my year was majorly impacted by one such case. And I happened to have known this girl from before (not well) and I knew that this was an issue for her. If the seminary had known before, it would have saved a lot of agmas nefesh and pain on the part of many other girls.

I went 15-20 years ago. I really feel like this is yet another example of how we infantilize the younger generation. My seminary was really not involved in what went on outside of school hours beyond issues of following whatever rules the seminary had. Yes, sometimes there was social drama, and we had an eim bayit to help deal with things sometimes. But beyond that, it was kind of expected that we be adults (because, well, at 18, you literally ARE an adult), most of us were expected to start shidduchim within a few weeks of returning, so many of us were less then 2 years out from marriage, there was a real expectation that this wasn't year 5 of high school. And yes, we were aware of mental health issues. There was a counselor on staff available to help. A girl in my year unfortunately had to leave in the middle of the year to treat an eating disorder. It doesn't mean she should not have been accepted, it means perhaps her parents should have been aware enough to know that sending her abroad for a year a year was not right for her at that time.

amother

Lightyellow

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 8:17 am

amother DarkGreen wrote:

And the girl still kept up with her bad friends, so it doesn't seem like she was actually all that good.

Do a lot of people feel this way? Even if a girl doesn't do anything objectionable herself, she is already not all that good just by virtue of relationships with "bad" people?

amother

Tan

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 8:37 am

In our family, we decided that this Double Take needed to be a Triple Take. The main problem is the seminary principal, and if somehow her position is justified, she would need her POV piece too to show us that (though they'd have quite a hill to climb...)

I do think it was on the school to communicate with the parents when they knew she wasn't getting into her first choice and likely none, before letters came out, so they could start the process of looking at alternatives and maybe get her in on time or soon during the second round. Principals often know this is advance and will work with families where the girl will get rejected by all.

Realistically, there is a reason many families will do everything they can not to go to a faculty member of their own high school for a problem like this and will tell the high school that dd is having a bit of a hard time adjusting and could benefit from the help of some attention or responsibility or social setting like is used in the story. In towns with multiple high schools, you go to someone from the other one for the talks, etc. As soon as the story said they used the 12th grade mechaneches, I knew they were up a creek.

amother

Bottlebrush

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 8:43 am

amother Tan wrote:

Perfectly said.

Also on the school that they didnt alert parents that girl.was not in anywhere.

amother

Aster

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 8:57 am

If the role of the advisor is to be an informer for the seminaries, then she shouldn’t be acting as a confidante for the girl. It would be like a therapist or rav giving confidential information. There’s an expectation of trust when you’re unburdening yourself to someone for advice. Obviously they wouldn’t have done so if they knew she’d be informing on them.

amother

Sage

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 9:10 am

amother Aster wrote:

1000% this! And if they do act as a confidant they MUST do their due diligence and find out where the student is holding now. She clearly said said that since she's been teaching her from tenth grade on she's seen no cause for concern. Meaning had she not been involved back in ninth grade she would've given a very favourable report.

HOW IS IT RIGHT TO USE CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION, LIKELY FALSE, KNOWING IT WILL COST HER STUDENT A PLACE IN SEMINARY???

So anyone who works on herself to overcome a nisoyon is doomed? The torah believes in teshuva but this seminary advisor does not? SHOCKING.

amother

Hunter

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 9:45 am

amother Aster wrote:

This is really the only answer. When a teen has a rough time navigating the transition from child to adult she needs someone to talk to. That person should be required to respect the girl’s need for confidence and trust by not sharing information. If my therapist shared personal information about me I’d be devastated. What this story brings to light is the frum world’s unfortunate use of non-professionals to help people in distress. This is only one of many problems that can result from this sad trend. There should be professional school counselors available and full confidence should be ensured.

amother

Almond

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 9:52 am

amother Hunter wrote:

Agree. But this isn't the only answer. Seminaries need to stop fostering this elitist attitude among us. Navigating teenage years is already a challenge. Why are they making it much more difficult for our kids? The expectation that if a teen slips, she will never be up to par again is a devastating mindset. It can damage a teenager's perspective of deciding the value of correcting her missteps.

What is the purpose of having seminaries in our environment today? Is it to promote exclusivity and elitism among us? Or is it to provide spiritual direction to our young women. If its the latter, then they need to fix their methods asap. If its the former, then such concepts don't align with yiddishkeit.

This whole seminary business needs some major reevaluation.

amother

Chestnut

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 9:57 am

It seems if the the issue would have been completely resolved, she would have kept quiet.

However, she knew that this girl was still in touch with her old friends.

I understand many on here don't see anything wrong with her keeping in touch with those friends. But then she might not fit in this kind of seminary, which does place a big emphasis on the influences they surround themselves with. I don't consider this elitist.

Let the tomatoes fly.

BH Yom Yom

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 9:59 am

This was one DT where I could really feel for both sides. Especially given that the principal had just told the seminary advisor about the issue with another high school getting completely blacklisted when information was glossed over, I really feel the seminary advisor was between a rock and a hard place.

The Machon Aliza Whatever seminary‘s attitude of “we need to know every random little piece of ‘negative’ information that may indicate that the girls applying are human and weren’t born malachim so we can reject anyone who doesn’t fit the image we want” is so nauseating.

BH there are some seminary principals who are far more mature, ehrlich, and yashar than that. My seminary principal’s focus was not on where a girl used to be, but where is she headed now, and does she want to grow - באשר היא שם.

amother

Steelblue

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 10:39 am

amother Chestnut wrote:

This

Not that its wrong to have friends who are on a different level than you. But who we surround ourselves with can sometimes say a lot about us, whether we want it to or not, or even if its true or not.

There are plenty of circles where I can image it being a similar scenario, but with shidduchim. The family is calling to find out info about a girl, and hears that some of her very good friends who she hangs out with in public, wear pants or are OTD etc. Would it be acceptable for that family to say no to the shidduch? Yes. Because there is something to be said for someone who surrounds themselves with bad influences, even if they themselves dont seem to be heading in that direction.

amother

Crystal

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 11:25 am

amother Steelblue wrote:

Wow. So girls can only associate with perfectly mainstream BY girls or it’s bad for shidduchim??

amother

Taupe

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 11:41 am

amother Chestnut wrote:

This story really highlighted for me everything that is wrong with our society today.
The story came right after a beautiful story about a ger finding his place in judaism that literally brought me to tears. The way he found acceptance among jews....
and then this disgusting horrifying story showcasing the ugliest truth of frum society today,
the illusion of perfection, the kgb like tactics of the seminary.

If a girl dares to toe the line, she is basically kicked out.
Whats unbelievable is that bais yakov and seminary was created to help our girls grow spiritually, to PREVENT them from falling prey to outside influences.
Instead, what they are doing is disassociating from any girl who presents even the slightest issue that they will have to deal with, choosing only the "perfect" girls to deserve a seminary education.
Sara Schenirer must be turning in her grave.

amother

Steelblue

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 11:49 am

amother Crystal wrote:

Wow. So girls can only associate with perfectly mainstream BY girls or it’s bad for shidduchim??

I didnt say they can or cant. My closest friend is actually OTD, so im not judging.

But its not some new idea that we can be judged by the company we keep. That exists wordwide, not just in frum BY circles. Who we surround ourselves with can be a reflection of ourselves, and even if it isnt it can definitely look that way to others.

And I'd be more concerned with an impressionable teenager, than an older adult who is much more settled in life and past the clear stage of "finding themselves".

Personally I almost didnt date DH because I didnt approve of his best friends. They were always clubbing, drinking, smoking, doing things I didnt want DH surrounded by. After a while I decided to date him anyways, and a couple years into our marriage it actually created a lot of issues because when he got to a vulnerable place, he turned to these guys and got influenced in a bad way.

amother

Grape

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 11:58 am

amother Tan wrote:

Oh man am I naive. Boro Park mom of girls here; making mental note.

amother

Tan

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 12:10 pm

amother Chestnut wrote:

Would a seminary like this accept a girl who is involved in kiruv?

B'Syata D'Shmya

Sun, Mar 03 2024, 12:15 pm

amother Hunter wrote:

Well said, using a non-professional as a therapist is as bad as using a non-professional for any other profession.
There is a reason one needs to be educated and licensed and be accountable professionally. You cant just hang a shingle.
But people want to think they are saving money using a non-professional. Its the most expensive route in the long run.