I’m a Zionist AMA

gottago

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:29 am

As a yeshivish Jew living in America who was born in bnei brak and raised extremely anti zionist (like not allowed to look at a magen dovid), as I matured, I realized that these are old fights. The current zionists don't hate yiddishkeit, the current situation in Israel is challenging, but beautiful and I don't want to be part of fighting old fights.
I've learned through the opinions that were written in the 50s, 60s and 70s and I understand what the concerns were, but I think history has played itself out differently than the opposers of Zionism anticipated.
The original zionists (Chovevei Tzion) were frum and the current zionists are mostly either frum or frum-friendly. In between there were a few generations where the leaders seem to have hated Torah, and much of the frum leadership in those times came out against them. But we are living now. And it doesn't seem to be a huge issue now.
So I choose to stop fighting and hating and love all Jews the way HaShem wants us to.

amother

Brass

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:40 am

Hi.

I grew up dati leumi: went to a dati leumi elementary school and high school outside Israel and a dati leumi seminary in Israel for a year. I was also very involved in the Bnei Akiva youth movement.

In college I slowly started leaning toward yeshivish/chareidi Judaism. Why? Because I observed that the people I knew who were yeshivish/chareidi took the Torah for what it is and tried to keep it as best as possible. My experiences in the dati leumi world (from many, but not all people) were that Israel comes first, the Torah comes in second, and the modern world is also important to embrace. I was impressed by the total dedication to Hashem and the Torah that I observed in the Yeshivish/chareidi world.

That doesn't mean that there aren't many dati leumi people who are very dedicated to Hashem and the Torah, and that there aren't many yeshivish/chareidi people who aren't so dedicated to Hashem and the Torah, but that's what I observed overall.

I think that this dedication or focus explains some of the differences between the two communities. For example, the army. If you read through Tanach you know that when Klal Yisrael was in EY they had an army. And the dati leumi world views the army as something holy, just as it was in the days of King David. They are protecting our holy land.

The chareidi world says: There is nothing objectively wrong with having an army. But this army is run by people who don't care about the Torah and there are many spiritual dangers to joining the army. If you weigh the two against each other, it's more important to make sure the Torah is kept in all of its details, even at expense of protecting the land. They also say that we live in a generation that has many challenges in kedusha, and every man should learn Torah for a number of years to counteract those challenges. So best not to join the army.

(And BTW yes, I live in Israel.)

Reality

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:55 am

amother Brass wrote:

A Jewish army is supposed to be an army of tzadikim. How is that ever supposed to happen without frum Jews in the army?

When I see videos of chayalim davening before going out to battle, I tear up. It is so emotional. This is certainly not the "zionist" dream of yesteryear. This is our frum soldiers protecting our life and land. This is our soldiers beseeching Hashem to protect them and us.

I also don't necessarily agree with you that the land isn't so important. When the Rambam counted the mitzvos he didn't include living in Israel. Many others count living in Israel as a separate mitzvah. Why didn't the Rambam include living in Israel? In his opinion, living in Israel was such a given because so many mitzvos can only be accomplished while living on our land. So I wouldn't be so quick to say the land isn't so important. Doing mitzvos is number one. Living in Israel is the place where we can do the most mitzvos. They are very tied together. We have lived in golus so long we have forgotten the importance of living in our land.

amother

Brass

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 9:33 am

Reality wrote:

I didn't say the land isn't important.

essie14

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 10:31 am

Reality wrote:

Agree 110%

Crookshanks

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 10:48 am

BatZion wrote:

Cheekily jumping in again.
My boys are young. They learn in Talmudei Torah. We want them to learn in frameworks that emphasize Limmudei Kodesh for as long as possible.
By the time my daughters reach army age I won't be sending them anywhere. They will be old enough to decide for themselves. We would hope our daughters would either do National Service or get married instead of doing the army. I have plenty of family who have girls serving in the army. We (our family and wider community) doesn't believe that the army is the right place for a woman, spiritually.
We identify as Chardal - Charedi Dati Leumi I.e. stringently halachically observant and right-wing.
We live in the Yehuda part of Yehuda V'Shomron.
I grew up in a non-Zionist family. Today some of my siblings are Zionist, and some are not.
My husband is Israeli and grew up mainstream Dati Leumi. His siblings today are Charedi, Dati Leumi and Chardal. The Charedim believe in living in Eretz Yisrael but do not follow the teachings of Rav Kook. All have much respect for Rabbanim across the spectrum.
I've been living here for almost 20 years.

Thanks, this was cool