I’m a Zionist AMA

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I’m a Zionist AMA

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amother

Daisy

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:14 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

Asking respectfully because I genuinely want to understand. I'm Satmar, and we were taught about the three shevuas in the Torah and that creating the State of Israel violated those three shevuas. How does your ideology align with that?

I am not the OP, but can you explain what shvuos you are referring to?

ora_43

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:15 am

amother Forsythia wrote:

Answering again even though I'm not OP, sorry OP.

The 3 oaths are complicated. There was never a single rabbinic understanding of what they meant, and not many rabbis who opposed Zionism were relying on the '3 oaths' idea.

For example there were those who said that the oaths only applied to the return from Bavel, or that they only applied for 1,000 years (so until roughly 900CE I think?), or that it only applies to building the Beit Hamikdash. (even at the time of the oaths, there was controversy - there's some criticism in the Talmud of Jews who didn't make aliyah at the time, from Bavel).

And even if we say the oaths apply in every time and place, there remains the issue that Jews didn't promise not to make aliyah or to self-govern, but rather, not to 'go up as a wall' or to provoke the nations. Many say that the waves of aliya prior to Israel's creation did not constitute going up "as a wall" and were not provocation - Jews migrated gradually, with the permission of the rulers at that time.

Even for those who believe that 1. the oaths always apply, 2. Zionism did lead to Jews going up 'as a wall', there remains a final justification - the fact that there was a 3rd oath, that of the nations not to overly oppress the nation of Israel. Since that oath was violated, the other two don't apply.

Finally, there's the issue that the 3 oaths are aggada based in Shir Hashirim, while there's an explicit mitzva to live in the land.

Basically, there's no one answer to how Zionism aligns with the 3 oaths, because there are many rabbanim over the millennia who've said the 3 oaths don't apply, each with their own reasoning. Either they never applied to that situation (19th century, not Bavel, etc), or the specific form of return didn't violate the oaths, or the oaths were null and void anyway due to mistreatment of Jews, or they were never halacha at all.

ora_43

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:18 am

amother Daisy wrote:

I am not the OP, but can you explain what shvuos you are referring to?

There's a medrash on Shir Hashirim that says that certain verses there refer to three oaths between Hashem, Israel, and the nations. Israel vows not to "go up as a wall" to the land of Israel, and not to provoke the nations (oaths 1 & 2). The nations vow not to overly oppress Israel (oath 3).

Some rabbanim who opposed Zionism based their opposition on this idea. The argument being that Zionism is "going up as a wall" and angering the nations, in violation of the oaths.

BatZion

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:31 am

You're a knowledgeable woman ora_43. These are things I've learned in the past but don't remember off the top of my head. Ashraich.

BatZion

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:34 am

amother Mintcream wrote:

I'm loving Batzion's posts. They make so much sense, thank you Batzion! Smile

Thank you Mintcream Smile

amother

Peachpuff

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:38 am

BadTichelDay wrote:

Yup, that sums it up nicely.

By the way, let's not forget that "Religious Zionist" is an English expression which is used mostly outside Israel.
In Israel itself, in Hebrew, it's called Dati Le'umi, Religious-Nationalist in literal translation. Which removes it from secular Zionism and also puts religious (a.k.a. frum) first in the name, before the national part.
And yes, I identify as DL.

Sometimes, I feel sorry for Herzl. I've read his book Old-New Land and it's truly charming in a very 19th century way. He wasn't frum but the last and closing word in his book, where several characters discuss what has brought the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael is: G-d.

Quite ironic considering that Hertzl’s first plan to solve the problem of anti semitism was to have the entire Jewish nation simply convert to Catholicism.

In 1893 Herzl proposed in the pages of a weekly magazine published by Vienna’s Association for Defense Against Anti-Semitism, that the Jews should become Christian. There would be, historian Simon Schama writes in the second volume of The Story of the Jews, referring to Herzl’s plan, “a procession in broad daylight to St. Stephen’s Cathedral,” where the Jews would undergo a “mass baptism.” Only a collective conversion to Catholicism would finally solve the anti-Semitic riddle.

Only after he realized the impracticality of his plan (the Russian Jews, even the secular ones, would never convert, and the Dreyfus affair proved to him that even a baptized Jew would be persecuted) did he switch to Zionism, purely out of pragmatism.

BatZion

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:46 am

Crookshanks wrote:

What yeshivos do your boys go to?
Would you send your daughter's to the army, or do they do national service?
How do you identify yourself religiously? (חרדי, דתי לאומי)
Is the area where you live dangerous?
Are your extended family and your husbands family also Zionists?
How long have you been living in Israel?

Cheekily jumping in again.
My boys are young. They learn in Talmudei Torah. We want them to learn in frameworks that emphasize Limmudei Kodesh for as long as possible.
By the time my daughters reach army age I won't be sending them anywhere. They will be old enough to decide for themselves. We would hope our daughters would either do National Service or get married instead of doing the army. I have plenty of family who have girls serving in the army. We (our family and wider community) doesn't believe that the army is the right place for a woman, spiritually.
We identify as Chardal - Charedi Dati Leumi I.e. stringently halachically observant and right-wing.
We live in the Yehuda part of Yehuda V'Shomron.
I grew up in a non-Zionist family. Today some of my siblings are Zionist, and some are not.
My husband is Israeli and grew up mainstream Dati Leumi. His siblings today are Charedi, Dati Leumi and Chardal. The Charedim believe in living in Eretz Yisrael but do not follow the teachings of Rav Kook. All have much respect for Rabbanim across the spectrum.
I've been living here for almost 20 years.

BatZion

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:53 am

Listen ladies living outside of Israel.
You gotta realize something.
You're too hung up on Herzl's Zionism.
This just isn't the talk here.
I will not deny that in our community we do not view Herzl as muktze. We see him as part of a long long line of Jewish history. We believe that, for whatever reason, Hashem decided to act through Herzl. I don't go digging into his life because, to be honest, it doesn't interest me.- I know what he did and said and what he believed. I don't care.
You know why?
We're living in the present. In Eretz Yisrael. Thanking Hashem for the great great Zchut of living here, bringing our children up here, hearing them speak Hebrew, hearing them learn Torah so naturally, watching them run through the streets and nature of Eretz Yisrael as so many our ancestors would have wished to.
You have a problem with how Hashem made this all play out? Dunno what to tell you. Sometimes we think it looks a bit ungrateful. Like "Hashem, why would you make EY open to us all through SUCH a person?! Why couldn't it have been through some choshuve Rav?!"
Say what you will about Herzl. If he played a part in the flowering EY that we live in today then he must have zchuyot.
We view our being here as part of a bigger story.
You're sitting outside of EY pained about a certain segment of Zionism, one sole person in the history of Am Yisrael. Zionism existed before Herzl and after Herzl. Why are YOU so stuck?

Last edited by BatZion on Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:56 am; edited 1 time in total

Reality

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:54 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Quite ironic considering that Hertzl’s first plan to solve the problem of anti semitism was to have the entire Jewish nation simple convert to Catholicism.

In 1893 Herzl proposed, in the pages of a weekly magazine published by Vienna’s Association for Defense Against Anti-Semitism, that the Jews should become Christian. There would be, historian Simon Schama writes in the second volume of The Story of the Jews, referring to Herzl’s plan, “a procession in broad daylight to St. Stephen’s Cathedral,” where the Jews would undergo a “mass baptism.” Only a collective conversion to Catholicism would finally solve the anti-Semitic riddle.

Only after realize the impracticality of his plan did he switch to Zionism.

Yes, Hertzl in 1893 had a plan. Let's say that again, 1893!!! It is the year 2023. Someone had an idea over 100 years ago. It has no basis in reality today.

I love history and think history is so important. But you need to analyze past events. So what that Hertzl had a stupid plan over 100 years ago. So many people in history had dumb ideas. It never came to fruition!!!

Bottom line, having the State of Israel is a gift from Hashem. It is a mitzvah to live here. It is a mitzvah to have a Jewish government, even if it isn't a halachic government. Any Jewish government is better than a non-Jewish government. As per shiurim I have heard from Rabbi Breitowitz, who is not DL but chareidi.

BatZion

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 3:57 am

Reality wrote:

essie14

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 4:13 am

BatZion wrote:

👏 👏 👏

Reality

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 4:24 am

I remember hearing a Rav say, I can't remember who I'm sorry, what is one "proof" that the Torah was written by Hashem? That it includes so many embarrassing stories, about humankind in general and the Jewish people specifically. A human author would have skipped or "smoothed" out the storyline. Like the Christian bible and the koran.

The same with the course of Jewish history. Why was this person the shaliach and not another? We don't know. Hashem has the Master plan, not us. It makes no sense to us that non-religious Jews would be the ones who fought for our land but clearly it is part of Hashem's plan.

The State of Israel is the LARGEST supporter of Torah in the entire world! Hashem performed open miracles in the creation of the State. He continues to perform open and hidden miracles here as we fight every day our enemies who want to murder every last Jew, "zionist" or not.

amother

Peachpuff

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 4:47 am

Reality wrote:

BatZion wrote:

I guess it’s appropriate to expand on the non Zionist/yeshivish/ eidah hachareidus etc. religious point of view. Again this is the non Zionist POV although it is largely corroborated by anyone studying the history of Zionism.

The history of Zionism after Hertzl is every bit as relevant to this issue as Hertzl himself. From the non Zionist religious point of view Zionism was and is an unmitigated tragedy. It resulted in the extermination of European Jewry and in the current situation where Israel is surrounded both within and without by Arabs who want nothing better than to exterminate the Jews en masse, and are on the cusp of having nuclear weapons with the capacity to do so.

For over 500 years until the late 1800’s the residents of Eretz Yisrael survived on the Chaluka, a partnership with Jews all over the diaspora who understood the chashivus of supporting the population of Eretz Yisrael especially the talmidei chachamim and widows and orphans. There were formulas throughout much of this time to divide the funds between Yerushalayim Tzfas Teverya etc.

The system had its ups and downs, but functioned fairly well for hundreds of years until it was completely destroyed by the advent of the Zionists in the late 19th and early 20th century. The Zionists had a malevolent view toward the European style Jews then in Eretz Yisrael who were interested in learning and had little interest in pioneering and building up the land in the way the Zionists envisioned. They penned venomous writings attacking the chaluka as supporting a bunch of shnorrors and getting in the way of agricultural endeavors that would make people self sufficient. This had a detrimental impact on the chaluka.

During World War One funding dried up as well and there was mass starvation and suffering particularly in the old yishuv. The zionists were politically adept and maneuvered themselves to purport to represent all of the Jews including those in the old Yishuv. They managed to funnel much of the remaining funding from worldwide Jewry through their organizations and wanted the perushim to agree to many of their conditions to obtain any of it. The perushim elected to starve rather than acquiesce. Large numbers of them, men women and children literally starved to death. The old yishuv was irreparably harmed.

Moreover from the non Zionist point of view the Zionists poked the bear in the late 1800’s and made what was a tolerable if unpleasant golus situation in the Arabian countries and Eretz Yisrael into one where billions of Arabs foment for Israel and the Jews destruction. The non Zionist religious Jews never appointed the Zionists to speak for them; the furthest thing on their mind was to start up with the nations by proclaiming a right to a Jewish homeland.

In fact Rav Hunter, one of the preeminent thinkers of the Yeshiva world, claims the zionists were directly responsible for causing the Islamic Mufti to align with Hitler, thereby bringing Eisav and Yishmael together, and in a ruchniyus sense causing the churban Europa.

There is yet more. During the British Mandate European Jews were refused entry to Eretz Yisrael, perishing en masse in the holocaust.
There was a viable plan that would have saved a large number of European Jews by allowing them to emigrate to Eretz Yisrael.

Read up on the old yishuv and the zionists assasination of Yaakov Dahan who, representing the Perushim and the old yishuv had the countours of a broad based agreement with king Hussein, the other Arab leaders, and the British that would have relinquished Jewish Statehood but would have completely lifted the quota on immigration and given the Jews full rights in Eretz Yisrael as equals. Hundreds of thousands of Jews would have had a destination to go to instead of being forced to stay in Europe by British quotas where they met their end at the hand of the nazis. (Not that the zionists had much use for them. They had little use for the poor religious Jew of Europe who was never going to be a pioneer and build up the Medina.)

The zionists were furious at anyone undermining their political machine, sabotaging their plans for an independent State, so they assassinated Dahan in cold blood as he left davening. The proposal fell apart with his death and the only alternative presented was the Zionist one of an independent state, which infuriated the Arabs and had the British alarmed.

As a result the Arab riots in chevron and Yerushalayim took place, culminating in the war of ‘48 , the loss of Jewish access to the Kosel for 19 years, and the exile of the perushim and the old yishuv from the old Jewish quarter after hundreds of years of continuous settlement, long before Zionism was ever conceived. That exile was permanent, as the perushim never returned to the Jewish quarter.

This is all documented history. The umbrella organization of the perushim under which Yaakov Dahan negotiated his proposal in the early 1920’s , the Vaad Ha’ir, later became known as the Eidah Hachareidis. Now you know the rest of the story and why the Eidah Hachareidus continues to view the zionists as illegitimate usurpers. Those who identify with the old yishuv and its way of life have no debt of gratitude to the zionists. And that’s an understatement.

There is a recognition among most that we are stuck with the current situation and at this point are certainly better off with a Jewish government than an Arab one so we appreciate those who serve in the tzahal and mourn those who gave their lives defending the Jewish people; Yeshivish people are not for the most part Neturei Karta. But we aren’t under any illusion that the zionists did us any favors.

Reality

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 5:21 am

We all know the original zionists did a lot of not good things. Why continue to obsess over it? It's not information that any of us don't know.

As for saying the zionists brought the Holocaust upon us, I have a hard time believing that statement from any human. None of us are Neviim, none of us know all of Hashem's plans and reasons why things happen.

In a Navi shiur by Rabbi Breitowitz, I believe in Zechariah, it says that during the end of days, during the war of gog and magog, two thirds of the Jewish people will be killed. Some say that's the Holocaust. Yet "only" one third of the world's Jews were killed. So either worse is yet to come. Or Hashem in his rachmanus lessened the bad prophecy and "only" one third was killed. Imagine looking at the Holocaust as Hashem's rachamim! It is so difficult to fathom but maybe it was?

Or Rabbi Breitowitz continued on with other explanations as well. The point is we humans just don't know the WHY of so many of life's events.

ally

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 6:01 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

Your "documented history" is not quite as unbiased as you are suggesting. I mean, to say the Zionists could have focused on saving Jews rather than politics is one thing - but to blame them for the holocaust is beyond the pale. Hitler caused the holocaust.

But honestly, I think we are so far in the future that we are able to examine the effect of zionism with a whole different lens.
And this is what I see.

The small community of perushim became the Torah center of the world.
Chareidi society is thriving in Israel.
Many in the diaspora have their Judaism enriched by the ability to visit a Jewish state with our own language and culture.
The rates of assimilation and intermarriage in Israel are almost negligible compared to the US.

So maybe the state saved Judaism even if it wasn't their intention?

ora_43

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 7:29 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

No it isn't. Everything you're saying is the standard chassidish anti-Zionist take, based on a highly selective reading of history. There's a reason that it's specifically the chassidish anti-Zionist take, and hasn't been adopted elsewhere, even in a world where billions of people are looking for a reason to hate Israel.

The only agreement you'll get is from Arab nationalist historians who are happy to jump onto the "we would never have hated the Jews if it weren't for Zionism" bandwagon. Although if you look at the way other minorities have been treated in the Middle East in the past 50 years, the idea that Jews would have been spared seems laughable.

Quote:

It resulted in the extermination of European Jewry

Blaming any Jew for the genocide of Jews is horrific. Blaming the Jews who were on the literal front lines fighting against the Nazis ym'sh is just... let's go with 'an odd choice.'

Quote:

For over 500 years until the late 1800’s the residents of Eretz Yisrael survived on the Chaluka... The system had its ups and downs, but functioned fairly well for hundreds of years

The Jewish population of Europe soared while the Jews in the land of Israel barely increased in number over the course of hundreds of years. As late as the beginning of the 20th century infant mortality was twice what it was in Europe, malaria was a perpetual killer, and there was little access to running water or sanitation.

Quote:

The Zionists had a malevolent view toward the European style Jews then in Eretz Yisrael...

This is not history, this is opinion. One could just as easily say that the 'European style' (??) Jews in Israel had a 'malevolent' view toward Zionists.

Or, we could say that both sides were deeply concerned about the fate of the Jewish people, but had very different views of how to improve the situation.

Quote:

Moreover from the non Zionist point of view the Zionists poked the bear in the late 1800’s and made what was a tolerable if unpleasant golus situation in the Arabian countries and Eretz Yisrael into one where billions of Arabs foment for Israel and the Jews destruction.

Again, this is opinion, not history. And again, the same logic could be used in Zionists' favor. Zionists could argue that if anti-Zionists had joined the cause in 1895, millions could have been saved. Zionists could argue that if non-Zionists had been willing the leave the shtetl and engage with the Arab world, things might have looked different.

And they'd be as wrong as the original argument is. Because ultimately the argument "if X had happened differently, Y would/wouldn't have happened" isn't historical scholarship, it's just wishful thinking.

Quote:

There was a viable plan that would have saved a large number of European Jews by allowing them to emigrate to Eretz Yisrael.

No there wasn't. The Zionists begged representatives of the Arab leadership to meet with them to talk about immigration. The Arabs refused. They literally wouldn't even sit in the same room to begin talks, let alone create a plan, let alone a viable plan.

The only way you get a 'viable plan' out of this is by wild theorizing. If the Jews had just agreed to give up any dreams of statehood, then the next generation of Arab leaders would have played nicely decades later (despite the rise of militant pan-arabism and alliance with nazi germany)! They probably would have been happy to allow massive Jewish immigration (they totally would have trusted Jews to remain a happily subjugated minority even as a majority)!

There is very very little reason to even hope that would have happened.

Quote:

(Not that the zionists had much use for them. They had little use for the poor religious Jew of Europe who was never going to be a pioneer and build up the Medina.)

Opinion, and a foul and hateful opinion. How can you say this about people who were living in the generation of the Holocaust? These were their literal brothers and sisters. Peres's grandfather and cousins were burned alive. Levi Eshkol's brother died fighting the Nazis.

Reality

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 7:59 am

I agree Ora, it is ridiculous to think if only the Jews kept in "their place" the Arabs wouldn't hate us and murder us. As if the Arabs never maimed and murdered Jews before "the zionists".

Also, look at the fate of the Christian communities under Arab and moslem countries. They are discriminated against, raped and murdered. Their numbers are dwindling and the world doesn't give a darn. Is that how anyone of us would like the Jewish people to live?

amother

Ecru

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:04 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

These are excellent points. Thank you for pointing them out and sharing.

shabbatiscoming

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:05 am

amother Peachpuff wrote:

(Not that the zionists had much use for them. They had little use for the poor religious Jew of Europe who was never going to be a pioneer and build up the Medina.)

Ill have you know that many of those "poor religious Jews of Europe who was never going to be a pioneer and build up the Medina" literally did JUST that.
I have relatives who went to israel from europe. And they became priper chalutzim.
So please, get your facts straight.

ora_43

Fri, Oct 06 2023, 8:06 am

In an attempt to bring the thread back in the direction of 'stuff you might not have known about zionism':

For me as a Zionist, I don't mind people who disagree with Zionism. I can tolerate that, just as I tolerate people who keep a different standard of kashrut or whatever else.

But people who see Zionists as malevolent and evil beyond evil, to the point where they deliberately let Jews die? No. Sorry. No. The idea of the evil, scheming Jew with no loyalty or love for anything but power is classic antisemitism. We can do better. We can vehemently disagree while still keeping in mind that the other side means well and even wants the best for us.

And one thing I think is often misunderstood about Zionism - probably most often misunderstood - is the question of what Zionists know about Zionism. Every antizionist and their brother seems to assume that Zionists just haven't heard what the PLO, marxists, or l'havdil Satmar has to say about it, and if we would just listen, then we would obviously change our minds.

We've heard. We know. We just disagree.

(using the general 'we' here - there are of course plenty of zionists who haven't heard the Satmar arguments, just as there are plenty of Satmar chassidim who've never spoken to a zionist about zionism. but in general, most Zionists are decently well versed in zionist philosophy as well as the arguments against it.)

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