I’m a Zionist AMA

amother

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:08 am

Silver can you please explain what the difference is and what are the movements? Asking seriously

I don’t understand why disagreeing with some people cancels out the whole miracle Hashem gave us and the importance made clear to us of living in and building up EY

amother

Silver

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:12 am

It doesn't cancel it. I would never call myself a zionist because I don't believe in most of the secular zionist movement. I do feel we belong in israel, and I am very pro israel, and I'm thankful to those who serve and settle all over especially dangerous places. When I hear someone refer to themselves as a zionist I think of the secular movement. But I live in america so it could be I'd see it differently if I lived in Israel.

BatZion

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:16 am

amother Silver wrote:

Tzion doesn't translate to Zionism. I think it would be better to differentiate the movements.

But you're not listening.

Religious Zionism doesn't view Zionism as a movement.

We believe that coming back to Eretz Yisrael is part and parcel of being a believing Jew.

We believe that being able to live here today is the beginning of the Geulah.

This isn't a movement. This is part of Judaism. That is how me and my community see it.

ora_43

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:18 am

amother Silver wrote:

That's not zionism though. Zionism is a very specific movement. I think most Jews believe what you believe minus small select groups.

Specific, but not nearly as specific as you're suggesting. Jabotinsky and Rav Kook were from wildly different schools of thought re: Zionism than Herzl (and each other), just as two examples.

ora_43

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:21 am

amother Silver wrote:

What does zionism mean to you?

I am pro Israel, I think it's our land. But I am not pro the goverment which seems to be what zionism is?

If being pro each and every Israeli government was a requirement, nobody would be a Zionist. Even people in the Israeli government complain about the government.

IMO the basic definition of Zionism is the belief that there should be a Jewish political entity (state, independent province, what have you) in the land of Israel. Currently, through darkei teva, not waiting for it to happen via openly revealed miracles.

amother

Watermelon

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:53 am

One of the most basic foundations that Zionism is founded on is anti religion. If you read about the early Zionist leaders, their entire goal was to eradicate yiddishkiet in the new State of Israel.
So essentially, being a religious Zionist is an oxymoron.

If you are translating Zionism with a love for Zion, then every Jew is essentially a Zionist.

It seems here though, that you are using the word Zionist to define one who lives in and supports the State of Israel. I would not call that a Zionist. You need to better understand the movement that was Zionism to appreciate what it means to be a Zionist.
No frum jew can fully align themselves with Zionism, because to do so would mean to lose your Yiddishkiet.

amother

Wallflower

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:58 am

amother Watermelon wrote:

So the entire religious Zionist/dati leumi community is not frum?
Thats a bold statement.

Reality

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 11:59 am

amother Watermelon wrote:

That old Zionist movement is gasping for it's last breath. I wish some segments of Jewish society would stop beating a dead horse. Stop fighting "the good fight" from 50 years ago!

You would be surprised how many chareidi Jews are zionists. Come to Israel and talk to some of them.

shabbatiscoming

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 1:52 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

Rav Kook was an ardent zionist. He also loved every fellow jew/israeli, no matter if they were religious or not.
Many frum jews 100%align themselves with zionism. Not the zioniem of old. But aligning thrmselves to zion is every way possible that connects them to hashems land.
There are many many religious zionists.

ora_43

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:05 pm

amother Watermelon wrote:

You need to better understand the movement that was Zionism to appreciate what it means to be a Zionist.
No frum jew can fully align themselves with Zionism, because to do so would mean to lose your Yiddishkiet.

With all due respect, I'm willing to bet that Zionist posters actually do have a fairly good grasp on Zionist philosophy. Possibly one that is better, on average, than the understanding of Zionism passed down in anti-Zionist schools and literature.

Even re: the secular Zionists of days past, it's a wild simplification to say that their goal was to do away with yiddishkeit. Take Herzl, the Ur-example of the anti-religious Zionist. He wrote entire philosophical treatises in which he mocked... secular European Jews who lacked aim or national pride. Not the orthodox (who he tried to convince to join the Zionist movement).

BadTichelDay

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 2:22 pm

BatZion wrote:

Yup, that sums it up nicely.

By the way, let's not forget that "Religious Zionist" is an English expression which is used mostly outside Israel.
In Israel itself, in Hebrew, it's called Dati Le'umi, Religious-Nationalist in literal translation. Which removes it from secular Zionism and also puts religious (a.k.a. frum) first in the name, before the national part.
And yes, I identify as DL.

Sometimes, I feel sorry for Herzl. I've read his book Old-New Land and it's truly charming in a very 19th century way. He wasn't frum but the last and closing word in his book, where several characters discuss what has brought the Jews back to Eretz Yisrael is: G-d.

amother

Orchid

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 3:54 pm

I know someone (older and Israeli) who truly believes that if someone lives in EY they are not in galus. She thinks galus is anyone living in chu”l

Do you feel that way?

Also, do you believe we have a right to the land when mashiach isn’t here? (Not that we should live here, I believe that EY contains unbelievable kedusha in the land and we all benefit just from walking the land and breathing the air)
I just know that the Rambam (who also loved EY tremendously) says that the yishmaelim can have the land at the time that it’s reika (empty of the bais hamikdash) in the zchus of their bris Milah which is reika (they do not have the full bris mila that we have)

Just curious about your perspective on these two issues. I hope this is respectful, I don’t want to take part in the arguments of the previous posters although I definitely have opinions on them

Crookshanks

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 5:13 pm

What yeshivos do your boys go to?
Would you send your daughter's to the army, or do they do national service?
How do you identify yourself religiously? (חרדי, דתי לאומי)
Is the area where you live dangerous?
Are your extended family and your husbands family also Zionists?
How long have you been living in Israel?

amother

Forsythia

Thu, Oct 05 2023, 5:16 pm

Asking respectfully because I genuinely want to understand. I'm Satmar, and we were taught about the three shevuas in the Torah and that creating the State of Israel violated those three shevuas. How does your ideology align with that?