Please don't bring babies or young children to megillah

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Purim

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amother

Jasmine

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 8:59 am

chestnut wrote:

These threads always make me wonder. What do we think Hashem wants from us - shushing and giving dirty looks to mothers of little kids who came to shul because they're divorced/single/any other valid reason (or worse yet, telling them not to come), so we hear every word of the megillah OR giving them a smile or help out and missing some words?

Same question!!!!

amother

Brickred

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:02 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

I tried that already, also wanted to hire someone to come read for me but no one was available. Because we live sort of out of town, everyone was going to parties and didn’t want to stay

Did you try calling the rav and asking him what to do? Either he'd say you are potur or he will find someone to babysit probably.

Amelia Bedelia

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:05 am

PSA: Like Imasinger posted upthread, if you miss some words, catch up by quickly saying it to yourself. No need to hear again.

Also, I think it's selfish when cars/buses blasting Purim music drive past shuls during regular megillah leining times. There were times that I could not hear the words of megillah since the music drowned it out.

LovesHashem

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:07 am

chestnut wrote:

I'd never shush or give a dirty look. It doesn't help these people understand anyway. They've already brought their kid, damage is done, and they likely just don't know you have to hear every word.

I would go over after megillah and explain to them about the chiyuv and offer me/dh to help next year if they need so they don't have to disturb others.

Still isn't right to make others not fulfill their mitzvah.

Also like I posted before, there's family and chabad open readings most places. I grew up OOT in a small place too and we still had readings for kids. Why not go there? The baal Koreh goes very slow and repeats often and it takes 40-60 minutes and all the hamans are fun noisy affairs.

tichellady

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:11 am

I prefer not to bring my own kids but I don't judge people who do what they need to do. the reader should be loud and slow and repeat words if necessary. I do think there is some beauty in it being a communal event and I don't find it hard to tune our kids and still hear the reader but maybe it is harder for some people to do that

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:13 am

chestnut wrote:

It's Halacha to hear every word of the megillah.
Sorry but I am not in a position to pasken myself that I can miss some words and neither are you.

amother

Lightcyan

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 9:15 am

Amelia Bedelia wrote:

PSA: Like Imasinger posted upthread, if you miss some words, catch up by quickly saying it to yourself. No need to hear

Doesn't work when it's loud and ongoing and it's several pesukim at a time and you are frantically reading them and then miss out a bunch more while the baal Koreh has already read ahead and you can't catch up.

As I said this happened to me, there were a couple of 4 and 5 year olds running in and out, screaming on and off throughout the reading, while the moms sat there serenely and ignored it. Didn't take them out or shush them as should have happened the very first time. That was no ok. I lost time and sleep due to their lack of consideration not to mention scrambling around to make last minute arrangements so I could attend a late reading. I don't think I was the only one that year, either. So several people/families were inconvenienced and had a hard Purim because 2 women wouldn't take responsibility for their kids? I don't think Hashem wants that either.

yo'ma

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 10:14 am

I didn’t read the whole thread, but I knew someone was going to post this. I have a vent! Where I went, there were some women who were talking. I understand that they don’t understand or able to read the hebrew and it’s beautiful they came, but SHUT UP!. Be considerate! I did tell them at one point to stop talking, but that didn’t last long.

PeanutMama

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 10:38 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

This thread is making me cry. My husband does the emergency room shift on Purim- so he went in already before mincha yesterday and is there for the whole purim almost because he knows how many patients come in and he’s the only Frum guy that can help out there. I searched everywhere, texted anyone I know and no one was available to watch my baby last night or this morning. So yes I’m bringing my baby to shul. I guess I should be prepared for ladies to yell at me.

I’m so sorry. I really really feel for you. I don’t bring my kids to shul at all. Rosh hashonah I stood outside with them because that’s the way the shul was arranged and I couldn’t find a babysitter last minute and it was a long davening for the men and I just came to hear shofar. I learned my lesson when my son was 1. It was purim night and I remember I posted about the embarrassing situation where an older lady tapped me on the shoulder before the megilah even started (they didn’t say the megilah brachos yet) and ordered me outside quite rudely in front of hashem and everyone because my son started babbling and I took the horrid walk of shame next to the door from the other end of the room. What’s so funny is that the previous year I went to that same shul and my son was probably 3 months old and he didnt make a peep aside from a cute little burp and coo and after the megilah tons and tons and tons of women went up to me and admired how well behaved my son was. I now know that this shul does not like children (I heard this from several people who are in my shul) I cried so much that night the next purim because I was told these kinds of comments but in such a harsh way I had to log off after a bit but after this I vowed I will never EVER bring my kids or even go to shul I mean if ppl are this nasty or thinking these kinds of thoughts why bother. I only go to shul rosh hashonah and purim Yom Kippur I stay home because I’m a horrible faster. There’s always a nicer gentler way to educate someone about the seriousness of hearing every word of the megilah. And I have no family here so no loving grandma or devoted aunt. This purim and last purim we dropped off the kids at friends and my husband and I went to the megilah together. Last night there were a few kids at shul who made a little noise and I didn’t look down at the parents at all because they probably tried their best to find a babysitter or they had no choice because I know what it’s like to have no one to turn to. I stand with you friend.

chestnut

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 10:55 am

amother Camellia wrote:

I’m not yotzei if I miss some words! My husband goes on hatzolah calls and I’m lots single on Purim and I fully manage and I don’t drive not everyone’s status is an excuse.

Good for you! Still not the reason to look down at those who "didn't manage" to do the same.
I'll leave it up to Hashem to decide if I were yotzei. I like to think He's more understanding than some of us, mere humans.

amother

Lightcyan

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 11:01 am

chestnut wrote:

Last night, before the reading, the rav made a serious announcement that we must hear every word or we are not yotzei. Sorry. It's not about looking down. It's about people needing to follow halacha. It's not right if others do things so that they can't do so properly.

(BTW this was not a RW shul. It was a chabad shul with almost no regular "frum type" people. As in, I was one of the few women in a skirt and sleeves.)

amother

Whitewash

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 11:09 am

amother Lily wrote:

I have an older very disabled son. His issues are not so much behavioral, but he can't control vocalizing and making noise, especially when he's excited. At the same time, he has full cognition, and needs and wants to do all mitzvos he physically can.

So.. during the year my husband brings him to shul and sits near the door, so my son can be at davening, hear leining, etc. but DH can wheel him out immediately if he makes noise. Boruch Hashem the other men in shul are understanding and solicitous of my son's needs, but we certainly don't want to take advantage of this!

On Purim, my son needs to hear the megilla, but not at the risk of disturbing others and costing them their mitzvah or time. My husband bought a megilla and leins at home, and my son is able to follow along. I know we're fortunate to be able to do this and not everyone can, so we've had other kids with various special needs join us if they want and are ready to listen to megilla. In this setting the kids are calmer and my husband is attuned to the situation so he can repeat words as necessary.
However, we're not prepared to open this leining to the public since my husband is not comfortable being in charge of making sure a large crowd will be yotzei in this situation - this is for kids who want/need to hear megilla.
[In previous years, when this son or my other kids were too young or otherwise unable to listen to the whole megilla but still knew enough to be excited about Purim, my husband would lein a few pesukim (including Haman's name, of course) for them.]

This works beautifully for us now, and I know enough to be grateful that we can do this.

As a fellow special needs mom in the trenches, I know how hard it is. My son's needs and feelings are paramount, but we need to figure out how to meet them without causing any 'damages' to others.

This is just amazing. May you and your family have שפע ברכות, עד 120.

amother

Whitewash

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 11:10 am

amother Jasmine wrote:

Where do you live? I’ll babysit for you.

amother

Cerise

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 1:51 pm

When my first was born I took him to the nighttime megilla reading. He was pretty good, no one missed words, he was in a sling, but it was so nerve-wracking that I just couldn't do it again. So we went to different readings, and sometimes borrowed a klaf so DH could read for me.

Then when my oldest was around 3-4 I brought him to a Chabad megilla reading. I ended up walking out when he wouldn't be quiet, and put my ear to the door while shushing him outside, straining to hear every word. I did manage but the year after that I refused to go to megilla and insisted DH borrow a klaf to read to me at home. We did that for a few years and then finally bought our own megilla so that we could continue doing it at home more easily.

Soooo.....this year our oldest is 12 and we said it's time to go. I think it was a mistake to let 2nd oldest go along with them but what's done is done. I wish DH had left me the klaf so I didn't have to wait for him to get home to read the megilla. I would've just read it to myself. Last year I was Pesach cleaning the bookshelves as he read megilla for me, and correcting his trop and kri ksivs as I cleaned the bookshelves, so I think I know it well enough to read as well.

I might just Pesach clean the shelves during megilla again. It helped me concentrate on the megilla lol. (Don't tell me I have to follow along in a book. If I can correct the baal koreh's mistakes then I'm obviously following along well enough.)

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 2:27 pm

chestnut wrote:

Where do you see 'looking down who didn't manage?
Utter nonsense.
Nobody can or will interrogate you if you were yoitze or not, right?

Bnei Berak 10

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 3:25 pm

PeanutMama wrote:

There’s always a nicer gentler way to educate someone about the seriousness of hearing every word of the megilah.

The Halacha is clear and simple, one needs to hear every word. Full stop. No need to complicate things.

LovesHashem

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 3:38 pm

chestnut wrote:

Not judging anyone - just trying to explain how your actions affect others who are trying to fufill halacha.

amother

Firethorn

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 3:41 pm

amother Phlox wrote:

I hear how that sounds so annoying, but retro actively and from an outsiders perspective we can be Dan lkaf zechus…there are so many reasons why a grandmother brought her grandchildren without their mother (maybe the mother just had a baby? Or is sick?)

If they were 3 adults they could’ve taken chances….

ora_43

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 4:44 pm

I agree with the general premise, but I think it's also important to set everyone up for success with lots of options, clear communication, and a ba'al koreh who has their finger on the pulse of things.

IOW there should be at least one reading that either includes a babysitting service or is open to all ages (with a LOUD and patient reader). There should be an announcement before reading about the importance of hearing everything (and potentially specific suggestions like "please turn your phones to silent. if you have young children who may need to leave during the service, there are seats available in back."). And the reader should read loudly and clearly and repeat if there are disturbances.

It's not really realistic to expect each individual person to always have the right knowledge/awareness and make the right decisions. More realistic to build a system that makes it easy to do the right thing (on both ends).

ora_43

Tue, Mar 07 2023, 4:46 pm

And be dlkz on parents, who don't always realize that their kids aren't capable of being quiet through a service until it happens. (whether its parents of young babies still getting used to the concept of babies, or parents of older kids who thought their 7-year-old was old enough to sit through a megillah reading only to discover, oops, no, they're not, at around 35 minutes in)

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