Taking Babies and Children to hear the Ten Commandments

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Forum -> Yom Tov / Holidays -> Shavuos

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sarahd

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 12:06 pm

Wow, there's a lot of meat in this post! Let's see if I can get to every point before my laundry overwhelms me!

SaraYehudis wrote:

sarahd wrote:

However, I certainly have no right to force other mispallelim who are not Lubavitcher chassidim to follow the directives of the Rebbe....

Why would anyone feel forced?

I think that my original point got lost in the back-and-forth. I don't feel it's right to force others to put up with my baby, who is not going to listen to krias haTorah quietly but is going to chatter or cry, unless they as Lubavitchers have been mechayev themselves to follow the Rebbe's directives. When I come to shul and in effect tell people, "you have to put up with my baby's noise, which might prevent you from properly hearing the Aseres Hadibros, because I want to do as the Lubavitcher Rebbe says," they will probably feel that I am forcing my desires on them. Do you see what I mean?

Quote:

However it brings out an interesting point and that seems to be that some non-Lubavitchers perhaps with their own prejudices ( I don't mean you ch'v Wink

) feel that Lubavitchers are coming on too strong just by being around. You know what I mean..

I think it's not an unreasonable feeling, when people Wink

say things like the following:

Quote:

I think you are assuming that the Rebbe made this request of only Lubavitchers. That is simply not the case. He adressed it to all Jews...Whether or not one is a Lubavitcher, the Zohar tells us "ispashtusah d'Moshe b'chol darah" Every generation has its Moshe Rabbeinu.. And when the Moshe of our generation gives a hora'ah (directive) for all Jews our response is to do whether or not we understand the meaning of it, in a manner of Naaseh before Nishma, with true belief in the Nosi and Tzaddik Hador.

which is not what I would call "just being around."

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We are a sort of (collective)consciense that doesn't let people get too complacent about their (assumed) righteousness.

That's lovely, but I do hope that you can see that such an attitude irritates people who feel that they have their own manhigim ruchaniyim to act as their conscience, who are meorer them. As I read somewhere else, "all chassidim believe that they have to listen to their Rebbe. The difference with Lubavitchers is that they think the whole world has to listen to their Rebbe, whether or not they're Lubavitchers."

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However, that is not the mentality of many chareidim. They do feel good about their level of Yidishkeit and many consider themselves as finished products.

I consider this to be slander on a large segment of Klal Yisrael. On which authority do you have this? Have you studied all chareidi communities that you feel you can make such a blanket statement about them? I don't know many complacent "chareidim"...most everyone I know feels that they could be better. Maybe their strivings are not exactly in the areas the Lubavitcher Rebbe was interested in, but how relevant is that, for people who never accepted the Rebbe as their manhig?

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In their mind many of these people are thinking "There are those holier than thou Lubavitchers who think we're not good enough...."

I don't think that is quite what people have in mind when they think of Lubavitchers.

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About the second assumption, that most....have not accepted the Rebbe as Nosi HaDor, one would have to know a. how many is most, b. what is a Nosi HaDor in order to make such a claim.

Most is usually considered well over 50%. As big a group as Lubavitcher chassidim are, they are not yet over 50% of the frum community. As far as defining Nosi Hador, well, who defines what a Nosi Hador is? the person claiming the post? His chassidim? Other gedolim? I vote for choice #3. And I have not heard one godol say that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was the Nosi Hador.

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However, having admitted that the Rebbe is a holy Jew,

It wasn't an "admission" in the sense of having been compelled to say this. I happen to believe this and have believed it since I understood what and who the Rebbe was.

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do you not think that that in itself is enough to seriously consider fulfilling a request of the Rebbe?

Yes, I do think so and I did seriously consider it. However, again, I don't feel that I can force my desire to fulfill the Rebbe's request on those who do not feel so obligated, which is why I stayed home.

1stimer

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 12:18 pm

Thank you sarahd. good post!

TzenaRena

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 5:20 pm

Sarad, lets just review where the term Nosi HaDor comes from. The Rebbe called his father-in-law the Previous Lubavitcher Rebbe (the Rebbe RaYatz)the Nosi HaDor. I will quote (free translation) a famous letter from the Rebbe dated 3 Tammuz 5710 in introduction of the Kuntreis Chag HaGeulah of 12-13 Tammuz(sefer hamaamorim 5710). in which the Rebbe explains to us what is a Nosi, and a Nosi HaDor.

"Many are those who seek to explain the qualities and greatness
of Nsi'ei Chabad in general, and Nesi Doreinu(the leader of our generation) he is kevod kedushas my father-in-law the Rebbe hk"m, in particular : the man of mesiras nefesh, Gaon, master of midos, tzaddik, master of Ruach haKodesh, seasoned in miracles and more and more.

These praises are even greater according to the definition of Toras HaChassidus, what is Mesiras Nefesh, what is a gaon etc.

And still - the main thing is missing here. In addition to that which it is the the main thing in essence, it is especially important since it is extremely relevant and especially to us, the community of his Chassidim and Mekusharim. And this is - that which he is the Nasi, and Nasi of Chabad.

Because a Nasi in general is called Rosh Alfei Yisroel, he is in the category of a head and brain in regard to them, and from him is their nourishment and life-force (chayus). And through the cleaving unto him they are connected and united with their sources in the highest (realms) above.

Now there are seveal types amongst Nesi'im. Those whose influence is in a manner of Pnimius, and those whose influence is in a manner of Makif. In these itself there are differences: If they had influence in the Torah of Nigleh (revealed portion), or that of Nistar, or both together, they taught the ways of Avodah and Chassidus, brought down Hashpa'os in Gashmius etc. etc.

And there are such that had many of the above categories, or also all of them.

And this is how it was from then and until now - the matter of the conduct of Nsiei Chabad, from kevod kedushas Admur HaZaken ( the Alter Rebbe)until Kevod Kedushas my Father in Law the Rebbe hkm, -which included all the types and their differences.: they influenced b'pnimius and b'makif, in Torah, Avodah and Gemillus Chassadim, spiritually and physically. And therefore their Hiskashrus to those who are connected to them with all 613 limbs of the soul and body of the mekusharim.

It is incumbent upon each and every one of us to know, that is to delve deeply in his mind and to establish ones thought in this, that he is the Nosi and Rosh, from him and through him are all the hashpa'os in Gashmius and in Ruchnius, and though the Hishkashrus to him( and he already instructed in his letters how and through what one is connected) they are connected,and united with the source and Source of the source until the highest height etc.

The Rebbe's signature

Yes , Sarad and others, you are not Lubavitchers and don't feel required to accept the Rebbe as Nosi HaDor, and by extension his horo'os. You are entitled to your opinion!

However, we Lubavitchers are also "entitled" to our opinion! Why should we be ashamed of something the Rebbe told us just because others have their opinions?! This is the title which the Rebbe called the Previous Rebbe and in light of the Rebbe's tremendous influence on Klal Yisroel (of which the frum oilam is notthe only segment or even majority...) one could say al achas kamah v'kama that this title surely applies to the Rebbe. Moreover the Rebbe even used the title "Novi HaDor" and "Yoetz HaDor" about the Previous Rebbe in more recent years.(5751?).

When the Novi HaDor, Nosi Hador tells us something that is beneficial for individual Jews and Klal Yisrael, we are enjoined to share this with our fellow Jews in the spirit of Ahavas Yisrael. That is why Lubavitchers do not withold their good fortune from others. After all, if Cocoa Cola is allowed to advertise all over the place, for monetary gain, why shouldn't Lubavitch be allowed to "sell" something that's good for you for no personal gain?

Mod2

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 9:11 pm

Since this site is for all Jewish mothers to share and support. We must becareful to respect that there are different shitas-ways of life out there. And just because someone doesn't feel about their Rebbe the same as another individual. Doesn't mean one should try to convince someone-else that their way is right and the other way needs alot to be desired. Unfortunatley we can see what happend with the Talmidim of Hillel who were convinced that they were right and that the other shitah was wrong.

Remember "we have more in common that unites us, then that which devides us" Lets work on that which unites us. Wink

timeout

Thu, Jun 16 2005, 10:00 pm

My husband and I went to Staten Island for an Ufruf this past Shabbos we took our two children with us.

Since all meals were at the shul we had no choice and went to shul with the kids.

My husband thought he was helping and took my 3-1/2 year old earlier so I would get some rest with the baby. When I got there I saw my husband standing in the hallway with my son. I asked nu what's wrong, all he said was never again is this child coming to shul till he's old enough to sit. I ofund out later in the middle of kriah my son had started singing Lipa Shmeltzers song "Gelt" on top of his lungs and wouldn't stop than when my husband tried to quiet him he started running around the shul and ended up on the Bima.

I think my son was banned from coming back to that shul embarrassed

technic

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 1:05 am

timeout once id stopped laughing I remembered I have some chizuk 4 - my son used to run around shul as well (altho bh he doesnt know "gelt"!!!) and now hes a mensch there...so it WILL pass iyh Wink

TzenaRena

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 8:16 am

Mod2 wrote:

Mod 2 I think you mean the talmidim of Rabbi Akiva!

You are right, which is why I took offense at the reaction of sarad when Motek posted at the beginning of this thread about the Aseres HaDibros in a very benign tone that the Lubavitcher Rebbe suggested etc. It was informative and pleasant, and let people know about the Rebbe's campaign, but definitely low-key. Instantly, someone must jump up and 'innocently' counter that, and put a damper on any enthusiasm or interest that any one of the readers might have in the fulfilling the Rebbe's heartfelt request, and remind everybody that they don't have to be serious about the Rebbe's request?

If you don't know if you could or care to be part of it, noone has any complaint to you. It could be your loss, or even your gain, it is definitely your choice. why should you discourage or put doubts in other people's minds?

Just by comparison, sarad did post something about Rav Elyashiv asking all Jews to daven for Yidden to have a refuah, during Aseres HaDibros. The response was respectful, and no one argued against it, although many of the readers are Lubavitchers who have Boruch Hashem our own Rebbe, Rabbonim and Poskim, and are not necessarily bound by Rav Elyashiv's Piskei Dinim, although I'm sure we do respect him. Nobody felt obligated to jump up and clarify that perhaps we should have different kavonos during Aseres HaDibros etc., and prove by semantics that maybe it is not relevant to those who are of a different shita.After all, what could be the harm in such a beautiful thing? It is not from my own Rebbe? If I don't choose to be part of it, I would certainly not make an issue of it!

That is "nohagu kavod zeh bazeh". Again, there is nothing wrong with trying to convince other Yidden that it would be of great benefit to them to fulfill a request of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. This is done in the spirit of ahavas Yisrael -- Just as there is nothing wrong to publicize that a great Rav requested for Yidden to daven for other Yidden.

sarahd

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 8:25 am

Just to clarify, R' Elyashiv made a suggestion in response to someone's query. It was not a psak din that people must have this kavana; just if you want to know when a good time would be to have this kavana, it would be during Aseres Hadibros. Baruch Hashem, this seemed to be very clear to everyone who read the post.

sarahd

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 8:28 am

And SaraYehudis, may I respectfully request that you reread the sequence of the posts. I didn't mention anything about not having to listen to the Rebbe until it was implied that everyone must do so. I thought Motek's response to my post was most appropriate and informative, as well as providing a solution to other mothers who might also have disruptive babies. I think other responses were not so helpful.

gryp

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 8:48 am

SaraYehudis- when speaking to a mixed crowd of people, you have to see the world through their eyes, and figure out the best way to get your message across in a way they can relate to.

it just doesnt hold water to say that everyone has to listen to the Rebbe because he's the Nasi Hador. we know what the truth is, and we know Hashem works His plans in mysterious ways, but the rest of the frum world has their own system they run on.

TzenaRena

Fri, Jun 17 2005, 9:37 am

RG sorry if I was misunderstood. I was explaining what a Nosi HaDor is, which is probably a new or different concept for many people. And I was bringing out that the source for this is the Rebbe, not some title that the Chassidim chose. Also the fact that others don't view it like that doesn't change something the Rebbe told us. There are many many other sources, explanations etc., but I'd have to do research for that . Maybe another time...

Sarad let's just say you are a very intelligent and learned woman Smile

I'm sure we could debate all day about everything, but for now,"es vahev b'sufah", Have a Gut Shabbos. Very Happy

raizy

Sat, Jun 18 2005, 9:18 pm

I did not go to shul on shouvos and for the first time in my life I am proud of it. now with four children at home all young . is it the right thing to do to go to shul and let my children distrub everyone else. is it the right thing to let my children distrub the leinign and all. I think not . hasham made for everything a time and place. Now it is not the time.

I did not always have this veiw. I took last year 3 kids to shul . let just say after 30 mintes I left before they kicked me out for haveing 3 hooligens distroy the shul. that was the last time I entered the shul except for purim or before purim. or sukkus when it is accepted practice to have little kids in shul.

stem

Sat, Jun 18 2005, 9:27 pm

I understand that some Lubavitchers feel that it is of utmost importance to take the children to Shul to hear the Aseres Hadibros on Shavuos no matter what the circumstances. But I am also a firm believer that children do not belong in shul until they are ready to Daven and have the proper respect of the Leining. If that means that I myself will not Daven in Shul or hear the Torah reading for the next 10-20 years, then so be it.

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 2:08 am

stem and raizy, where your'e coming from sounds logical and valid for many circumstances.but this one is the exception. In fact this is not a new question at all, whether to bring children, who may misbehave or disturb.

The Alter Rebbe, Rabbi Schneur Zalman, known to many as " the Rav" and universally accepted as one of the greatest Halachic authorities, author of the Tanya and the Shulchan Aruch HaRav rules the following in his( Halachic notes) on the Siddur:

"One should teach his young children and train them to answer Amen. From the time a child answers Amen, he has a share in the World to Come. Children should be taught to behave in shul with respect and reverence. Those who run and play in the Beis Haknesses, it is better not to bring them at all."([I]Siddur Tehillas Hashem pg. 61 Otsar 2001). [/I]So of course, it would be ideal and best to bring the children, teach them to stand or sit with respect, answer Amen, listen to Kriah etc. That is the L'Chatchillah. But very young children are often difficult to control, even for a few minutes sometimes. In that case it's better not to bring them. [btw, note that the Alter Rebbe does not say it is assur , just it would be better not. just my own observation]

Since all of us mothers (and not all of us are Geonim, though some seem nearly so Wink

) pretty much know this, then could it be that the Lubavitcher Rebbe (who's Geonus is undisputed even by those who have a problem with the title Nosi HaDor) knows this too?

Yet the Rebbe asks us to bring the children for Aseres HaDibros! With all our Halachic prowess notwithstanding, I daresay that the Rebbe knows better than any of us when our children belong in shul or not, and what in fact is the halacha! . One thing the Rebbe made clear a hundred times over is that he is a "Shulchan Aruch Yid", and to him Halacha is priority #1, overiding all considerations!

[Yes, in some Lubavitch congregations, it has become a custom to have another minyan for laining to accomodate the needs of the mothers with the young children. However, this doesn't mean that if no such option exists, then one's children don't belong in shul for Aseres HaDibros.]

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 2:37 am

stem wrote:

stem, (just theoretical, not personal) but doesn't the husband also have a mitzvah to be mechanech the children? My husband has been helping me with the children - for shul -since they were tiny (no, not diapering Sad

) They b"h always listen to him. ( I don't have that kind of success Smile

, so let him handle them since he's so good at it!) ) On Shabbos I always ship them out with him, and they sit by his side for the whole davening.( the girls are my department).

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 3:01 am

raizy wrote:

Raizy I think the key word here is "accepted". It might take some working on or prior arrangement, but surely, just the same as it is accepted to bring children for Purim, even though we must hear every word of the megillah, people could be brought to see the significance of children being there for the aseres Hadibros. And children are not always on their worst behaviour.Isn't there a saying that lightning doesn't strike twice in the same place? Who says it would happen again? Maybe your husband could take some of the children. Give him the more difficult darlings.

YomTov is a time when people bring children to shul. as opposed to Shabbos, when it's only those who can walk, Yomtov the streets are full of carriages and strollers. It's truly beautiful to see Yidden streaming to the shuls, the men in their special Yomtov attire, the women with their babies and children in nice new outfits. Doesn't everyone bring their babies for Birchas Kohanim?

roza

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 3:07 am

Quote:

Yet the Rebbe asks us to bring the children for Aseres HaDibros! With all our Halachic prowess notwithstanding

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 4:13 am

[quote="roza"]

Quote:

Yet the Rebbe asks us to bring the children for Aseres HaDibros! With all our Halachic prowess notwithstanding

did the Rebbe in fact asked us to bring children ,as you say, despite halocho that it's better not to? did the Rebbe mentioned this halocho the way you did?
I mean, the Rebbe said, but you need to have seichel and understand that it might not work in all situations, families, shuls, as few ppl wrote here. There is nothing wrong with that.

the way u put it - it's look like the Rebbe is changing a halocho h'v. u should be careful with your speeches.

also I want to know- if ppl for some reason could not go to shul does that mean that they did not recieve the Torah on that day?

quote]

Thanks Roza, I didn't think anyone would understand it that way ch"v so thank's alot for bringing it to my attention, and let me clarify. Some people wrote that it is WRONG I.e. implying that it is against halacha to have little children in shul etc.. Because otherwise it's just a feeling they have, or maybe even an excuse.... which doesn't merit debate, because feelings are just ...feelings.

So I'm bringing out, yes, there is a halacha, as a matter of fact, but the Rebbe knows this halacha and many other halachos, more than all we great women will know in our life! The very fact that the Rebbe is asking us to do something SHOWS that it does not contradict this halacha or any other halacha, because the Rebbe is ISH HaHalacha! Many times, at a farbrengen the Rebbe reiterated this point. that Shulchan Aruch is priority #1, that he is a "Shulchan Aruch yid".

In the fight for mihu Yehudi the Rebbe insisted on the word KaHalacha. In the fight for Shleimus Haaretz the Rebbe's arguement is Halacha, (not politics) siman 329 in Shulchan Aruch. As opposed to other positions taken on these matters by certain prominent figures in the frum world, in which there are no halachic sources mentioned. "Dvar Hashem zu Halacha" is perhaps the most frequent quote we heard from the Rebbe.

By example, the Chofetz Chayim is synonymous with Shmiras HaLashon. Can anyone imagine that the CC would tell someone a peice of info that could be classified as loshon HaRa in anyone's? book? One could confidently assume the converse : the CC told me a peice of info, THEREFORE IT COULD NOT BE Loshon Hora.! EVEN if to me in my great ignorance, or imaginary chochmah it seems like it is! Who do I think I am, that I'm going to teach the CC what is Loshon HaRa! Excuse me Kevod HaRav, maybe you weren't aware......Do you see that that is chutzpah? That anyone could have the idea that maybe the Rebbe doesn't know, but there really is something WRONG with children being in shul for the Aseres HaDibros.....

Roza, if people did not go to shul that day, surely the hamshochos, the revelations that were brought down are received by every Yid, and something their Neshomo appreciates, and benefits from. But there must be a difference for those who did attend. Maybe the difference is also in what we accomplish for the Jewish nation by being there. If It made no difference, why would the Rebbe ask us to do it? I will try to look up some sources and bl'n post it.

TzenaRena

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 5:22 am

roza wrote:

Quote:

Yet the Rebbe asks us to bring the children for Aseres HaDibros! With all our Halachic prowess notwithstanding

did the Rebbe in fact asked us to bring children ,as you say, despite halocho that it's better not to? did the Rebbe mentioned this halocho the way you did?
the way u put it - it's look like the Rebbe is changing a halocho h'v. u should be careful with your speeches.

...

LOL

I really talk too much! But did you see what I meant? I mean does it still some across that way or do you feel I made myself more clear?

Henya

Sun, Jun 19 2005, 6:02 am

the Rebbe said to bring children to shul, even babies, for Asseres Hadibros. Let's not confuse this with the entire davening!!!!! Asseres Hadibros is all of 10 minutes max. You can come just before AH & leave right after. How hard is it to prepare your children to keep quiet for 10 minutes? Bring books, bribes..whatever it takes. No, they don't have to stay in shul for the entire davening. I think that it's too much to expect a small child to keep quiet for that long & like lots of posters mentioned a disturbance to the other mispalilim.

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