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Forum
-> Yom Tov / Holidays
-> Shavuos
Motek
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 Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:23 am
The Lubavitcher Rebbe suggested a new initiative: that Jews recreate the Sinai experience. Every Jew - man, woman, and child - was present when G-d pronounced the Ten Commandments. Our Rabbis relate that if even one Jew was missing, the Torah would not have been given.
The Rebbe has suggested that we renew our acceptance of the Torah by simulating, at least in microcosm, that experience (of Mattan Torah). Let everyone gather in the synagogues to hear the reading of the Ten Commandments on the Shavuos.
In particular, the Rebbe placed an emphasis on the participation of the children. He cited the Midrash that relates that before G-d gave the Torah, He asked for guarantors. Our people made several offers: the Patriarchs, the prophets, and others, but G-d refused. And then our people said: "Our children will be our guarantors." G-d accepted this proposition and gave the Torah. "Therefore," the Rebbe explained, "our children should feature prominently in our commemoration of the Sinai experience."
This explains the "ice cream parties" held at Chabad houses on Shavuos around the world!
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sarahd
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:40 am
I don't think the people in shul will appreciate having my chattering and/or screaming baby there.... 
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Motek
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 8:47 am
I don't either.
Sometimes there is a special reading of the 10 Commandments just for Mommies and kids (more convenient time too).
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micki
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:19 am
now what sound can be sweeter to Hashem than the sound of a chattering baby? as to crying ones its up to us mommes to make sure that they are dry, fed and happy so they don't scream. take along a pcifier and toy and or food- it can be done!
all my newborns and children have B"H NEVER missed a asers hadibros.
I once was in a shul where children under age 6 are not welcome. well too bad there was no other shul to go to. so I with my 3 yr old, 2 yr old and 8 month old all went.
and since there was also a no stroller policy in shul the baby had to sleep on the floor. well my almost 2 yr old was so excited to get the tora that she was babbling and all the women were "shh!!!' but then I turned to them and said your shushing is louder thn her talking. and then when they started to gossip with each other I told them that I thought there was no noise allowed in shul.
but the kids were amazing and I won't go tot hat shul again.
did you ever hear the story of the yom kippur where they were all waiting for kol nidre to begin and only when a little boy whistled did they begin the tfilla. apparently shaarei shamayim were closed, and they were waiting for something to open them. obviously their own merit was not enough, and the sound of the innocent child was what was needed to open the gates.
so how can WE decide that children are not allowed in shul? obviosly they are needed to do things we cannot do on our own.
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Motek
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:22 am
kol ha'kavod to you micki and your determination
the only drawback I can see is when it's so noisy that you can't hear the Dibros being read
yrs. ago, I went to shul for the dibros and was EXTREMELY ANNOYED that the reader lained in a low voice (it wasn't actually a problem with children being noisy) that he wasn't audible 
so if the point is to HEAR the dibros, it DOES have to be quiet!
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gryp
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:23 am
| Quote: | | but then I turned to them and said your shushing is louder thn her talking. and then when they started to gossip with each other I told them that I thought there was no noise allowed in shul. |
micki- thats hysterical 
we also wouldnt miss aseres hadibros for anything. its like missing shofar on Rosh Hashana.
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Motek
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:31 am
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and for shofar too, there are often special times for women to hear it, not in shul at the regular minyan
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micki
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:40 am
shofar is another of those times that my kids have never missed. and the noise of babies will not prevent people from hearing the laining- its adults talking, the baal koreh laining in a low voice that does it. the frquency of babies talking is not the same as an adults voice so one will not block the other.
I
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gryp
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 9:47 am
micki- I agree with you except for when it comes to megillah, when you must hear every word because then it really has to be silent, and sometimes the baal koreh isnt very loud either. 
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sarahd
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 11:31 am
| micki wrote: |
so how can WE decide that children are not allowed in shul? obviosly they are needed to do things we cannot do on our own. |
I have to disagree with you here, micki. As a general rule, children do not belong in shul until they're old enough to understand about kedushas beis haknesses and sit quietly throughout davening, without disturbing other mispallelim.
The whistling child in your story was probably not 2 or 3 years old.
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Tefila
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 11:53 am
| Quote: | now what sound can be sweeter to Hashem than the sound of a chattering baby? as to crying ones its up to us mommes to make sure that they are dry, fed and happy so they don't scream. take along a pcifier and toy and or food- it can be done!
all my newborns and children have B"H NEVER missed a asers hadibros |
Ditto there 
You know I've found the parents that brought their kids to shul at a young age and supervised them the kids when older enjoy coming . Chana used to bring shmuel hanavi the whole time as a baby, and I'm sure there must have been some times when he made some noise.
The children incl the babys are our guarantors that the tORAH WILL BE Kept! So yes prepare the child b/4 and have toys, snacks ready etc and bring them to shul. maybe not for the whole daveningf but atleast for the Aseres Hadibros. And yes for shofar blozen I've brought my infants too, just made sure if they made noise we would go outside. And only once in fifteen years has my husband had to do it again for that very reason!
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micki
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 11:56 am
I'm not talking about shul in general- just those times where its nogea the neshama.
and no 2-3 yr old would be in shul without a responsible adult. so the issue of running wild is not one because the adult will care for the kid.
but the special time f aseres hadibros- even if the kid cries they should be in shul.
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sarahd
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:00 pm
| freilich wrote: | Chana used to bring shmuel hanavi the whole time as a baby, and I'm sure there must have been some times when he made some noise.
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Do you have a source for that? Brought him to shul or to the mishkan? Because if you mean mishkan, Chana actually kept Shmuel at home till he was weaned and she was ready to give him to Eli to stay there.
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Tefila
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:09 pm
| Quote: | | Brought him to shul or to the mishkan |
Ok you're right it was the mishkan. One source says yes when he was weaned and another source will ask my husband where but I'm sure I learnt it, says she used to bring him to hear the words of Torah
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gryp
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:12 pm
or maybe it was R' Yochanan ben Zakkai
his mother hung his cradle in the Beis Medrash so that no sound except Torah would enter his mind.
Last edited by gryp on Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tefila
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:15 pm
Ok time to review, girls, here I am preparing for a Shavuos class and can't even remember a basic detail like this  . Thanks RG
Anyway the underlying point is bring your baby to hear the Aseres Hadibros
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sarahd
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:19 pm
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Sorry, that was actually R' Yehoshua ben Chanania ("Ashrei yoladeto"). Anyhow, she didn't bring him to shul during davening; she brought him to the bais midrash when they were learning (and, I'm sure, making enough noise that they wouldn't have heard him even if he cried. )
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Tefila
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:22 pm
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Now I wont sleep tonight till I reasearch this and Sarahd thank-You too . But the underlying point is still lets bring our babys to shul.
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gryp
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Sun, Jun 05 2005, 12:26 pm
| Quote: | | that was actually R' Yehoshua ben Chanania |
youre right
thats what happens when I take a guess and am too lazy to doublecheck 
hakhel is another time every single Jew was present in shul- men, women, and babies too.
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