Champagne Tastes? Spinoff from MyHabit has Venettinis

Scrabble123

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:44 am

glutenless wrote:

I kind of feel the same way about the organization that gives to kallahs. If every poor kallah is getting beautiful shaitels, clothing, furniture, dishes etc, how do the middle class people deal with it? I had a very poor relative who got married 20 years ago, an organization gave her lots of things to help set up her house, but they were obviously not the best quality. She was thrilled, it was better than what she grew up with and at least she had dishes and things that she would not have been able to buy on her own.

The idea is that if people did not have that pressure to catch up, that the entire situation would drastically change. What if it was okay that your neighbor got furniture, and you did not? What if you were okay with having less? I don't just mean ok, but that you wanted what you could afford? What if people lived according to their means and not their neighbors? I'm not talking about individuals, but a community? This entire conversation would be irrelevant.

Now there are items that people need to be normal and feel good about themselves, and I am in no way asking people to sacrifice that, but why is it not acceptable for a couple to go to ikea and buy some bed frames, mattresses, and linens and be proud of themselves? The answer as to why this is not accepted is complex: it's very deeply ingrained in society, which is why it's almost "damaging" to expect someone to be different, but I just wish that this was dealt with and improved gradually.

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:48 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

My relative was very, very poor, she could not even afford to go to ikea. I do support helping really poor people with basics. I don't support the idea that everyone deserves the best. When I got married we bought mostly second hand furniture, some new from Walmart/Target.

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:51 am

debsey wrote:

I understood that Mrs Shanik gives vouchers to specific stores - not actual cash! I mean, if people were getting vouchers to the store I mentioned above (the "payment plan" store) which is so high end you get a nosebleed when you walk in - that would be extremely messed up. When I give money to Mrs Shanik, I imagine I'm paying for a NORMAL dress for yom tov or chicken, not a four hundred dollar dress for a 3 year old. It bothers me simply because with less demand those stores would CLOSE and I have no interest in artificially propping them up.

Yes, she does give vouchers. Sorry, I understood you previous post to mean you hadn't heard of buying clothing for poor people in regular stores, only in the "free store". I am sure she doesn't give vouchers to the payment plan store - I don't even know which store that is, ugh.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:55 am

glutenless wrote:

I was thinking about this when I was writing my post, and have posted about this on a thread about the Hachnosas Kallah fund.

I do see a difference between setting up a Kallah in her new home vs. outfitting kids in matching clothes from head to toe.....but at the same time, upping the standard makes it hard for everyone.

As I once posted on that thread, when I got married my father B"H was able to afford to set me up, on a simple, basic standard. There was a Kallah who the community collected for, and she bought everything luxe. But at least I had my pride. I did not envy her.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 6:58 am

debsey wrote:

Debsey, even the NORMAL dress for Yom tov is a new standard. Now the whole family needs to wear matching clothes from a Jewish store that retails upwards of $75 per outfit. When I was growing up, we found outfits at the mall for at least 80% less than that.

The standard has been raised.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:04 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I just think that I'm disappointed that a community that is supposed to be so focused on Torah learning would have such materialistic values, as discussed here. I think it's telling that you said that not dressing in name brands is "nebby." Growing up mo, which you would think would be more materialistic, my friends weren't so fixated on designer labels. Of course there's always a popular item but it was often from the gap. I only have young kids so maybe that's changed.

So I don't think kollel has to mean a life of poverty and deprivation but yes I would think it would be less materialistic.

Where did I say that? If I implied that, aplogies!

In know way do I think that you need name brand clothes. My kids dress mostly from Gap, old navy, H & M, and anywhere that I find tznius items at a reasonable price.

They will occasionally have a brand name item that I deemed cost-effective in terms of the price and quality. Like - my teens thought I should get my 6 year old a kipling and I said no way! I did spend on a Lands End one, since one year when my kids got Target backpacks, the zippers broke by Chanuka time. Lands End lasted several years!

Ditto for the Vennetinis (actually this year we got W.A.G.) At under $40 a pair, I expect these to last at least until Pesach, and I feel it's worth the price. And I don't feel we have to buy cheap items just because my DH learns.

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:39 am

Quote:

When I was growing up, we found outfits at the mall for at least 80% less than that.

"When I was growing up" really doesn't work! Regardless of culture, prices do go up. When I was a girl, prices were lower. Nothing to do with standards or brand names, just basic natural inflation.

When zaidy was young, you could buy 4 apples for 2 cents! Does that mean apples today are designer...?

That isn't to say that I don't agree with you. Just pointing out that standards or not, prices have gone up. I remember my mother complaining to me when we went shopping that when she was younger her clothing was so much cheaper... guess what, people? Everything is more expensive now!!!

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:44 am

kb wrote:

Quote:

When I was growing up, we found outfits at the mall for at least 80% less than that.

True, but I am talking about standards more than prices.

out-of-towner

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 7:52 am

Chayalle wrote:

True, but I am talking about standards more than prices.

This!

It is indeed a Minhag to buy one's children something special for Y"T, but that needs to be within ones means. There is no Mitzva for families to go into debt to buy their kids new whole new outfits for Y"T, or to accept Tzeddaka for it. Something new could be a new hair accessory, or new shoes, or a new game, it does not need to be a whole new wardrobe.

princessleah

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:24 am

My kids are 2 and 4. I am NOT buying them anything expensive. They grow out of it within a year, and in that year it gets covered with juice and snot and sand etc. Whatever is left standing is given to their cousins.
I don't buy them fancy new outfits for Shabbat and Y''T. They wear maybe a step up from regular play clothes, but for the most part they do not step foot in the sanctuary, so I need to buy them fancy suits/dresses to run around the shul basement?

I can't believe the attitude of ''helping'' a kid fit in. If a girl becomes a target because she is somewhat "nebby'', then the answer is that the school and families should DO THEIR JOBS of teaching the rest of the class middot and how to conduct yourself as a frum Jew, and be kind to everyone regardless of what they look like.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:37 am

Ironically, where I live, the right wing shul that has a majority of families either learning, klei kodesh etc, these are the ones who show up with kids in fancy matching attire. The shul more to the left (I go to both) is mainly working families. The kids wear old navy or gap at best.

The right wing shul and school are both falling apart. Literally borderline unsafe and they are hoping for a miracle. But hey, the kids look great.

Simple1

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:14 am

princessleah wrote:

It's sooo easy when they're 4. It's much more complicated when they get older and peer pressure sets in.

But I do agree that pressure to buy the best has gotten out of hand. I don't think it's exclusive to Lakewood though - in some areas of Brooklyn, I hear the standard is much higher.

Simple1

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:19 am

I found the plain loafer style Venettinis to be decent enough to last most of the year. The Venettinis I had problems with were the ones with embellishments - I've had ankle straps and bows tear off pretty quickly. And I heard the cloth band became dirty and hard to clean. The basic loafer styles lasted nicely.

I tried to hold off on them for as long as possible, but it's really hard to find decent shoes for elementary age kids. And from what I hear Venettini is not a name brand - Atlantas are the real thing - and I have a feeling they're not worth the extra cost.

The matching the whole family thing gets me thinking. You can't do that (easily) when you're looking for good deals or second hand clothing. I do match a couple of my kids sometimes, but only if it works out easily. And it's a good thing teens don't want to match their siblings.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:27 am

Oddly enough, Venittini are knockoff Atlantas and I find the Venittini loafers to last 10xs as long as the Atlantas, which peeled fairly rapidly. My Dd's Venittini loafers look new a year later. They are mostly outgrown, but I'm keeping them for the rain - and I expect they will last till her foot bursts out of them. They are just good quality! The Atlantas were overpriced junk IMHO

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:37 am

princessleah wrote:

you are saying this MOSTLY cuz your kids are 2 and4 - when you have teenagers, you realize there are more shades of gray. Sure schools SHOULD reinforce good middos and a focus on essentials. But that kind of change takes TIME. Meanwhile, for THIS kid, right now, who is being bullied - just help her fit in! And I'm getting this from a parenting class I took, not just making it up.
My oldest niece extremely popular - and she and 3 friends were called in by the administration and asked to choose simple clothes and handbags, since girls look up to and copy them. So my oldest niece bought simple stuff this year (but I have a younger girl who is not so gifted socially and I bought her some upgraded stuff) my oldest niece was not upset - she felt very complimented by the administration choosing her as an exemplar! They did name specific brands not to buy. Won't post what they are, but I think this is a smart move. No draconian rules, just asking some of the more popular girls to set an example and tone it down.

Scrabble123

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:42 am

debsey wrote:

It's so strange that you're saying this! Atlanta is an excellent quality shoe. I really think that it is worth the extra money. My friend's daughter who is very petite and has a step that shoes want (she never wears out shoes or damages them) did terribly in the Venetinnis. That being said, she has the same pair of Atlanta's for almost 2 years (she needed an insole the first year), and while she doesn't wear them everyday, you would probably think that the shoes have been worn less than 10 times (that's what wonderful condition they are in). It's also a sturdier shoe with more support than the Venetinnis, but to each his own. I also think that the London Kids shoes are worth the extra penny because they also last well and are made better than Venetinnis. [Oh, and a first shoe? Please go to stride rite and get something supportive instead of Venetinnis!! I cannot believe that someone posted that Venetinnis were the most popular first shoe!!!]

I think I'm old fashioned, because I do not even understand what is nice about the Venetinnis and I think it would be great if they would bring Sonnets back!

sky

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:59 am

I think Atlanta Moccasins are a piece of garbage. I bought my daughter a pair for more then 50% off for still too much money. They lasted one month. I had the front re-stitched 3 times before I tossed them. The front seam is just sewn together. There is no protection at all. For your average kid they will kill it (and my daughter typically wears one pair of shoes for 6 months at a time).
I bought a pair of Stillo shoes (for also a lot of money) in a similar style and it had rubber going up the front of the shoe to actually protect it from typical children's activities.

I agree with posters before that the way tzedaka is given sometimes sets standards very high for everyone else. I don't think anyone should look like a neb. You can look neat for a decent amount of money. but when a child grows up getting shoes every year from the front room of an expensive shoe store (with a voucher) they see no reason why their own children shouldn't have it once they are married even if they cannot afford it.

And with carriages - for my first I got a Graco stroller that I loved and used it for a long time. When my DH asked one of the high end baby stores why they push a snap 'n go over the carriage, when it weights the same, the fold is the same, the brand is the same, but the carriage is actually useful past the car seat age - he was like - the push is really bad so they don't sell it. But you must get a snap 'n go with your $500 stroller. Most people in this town use cars - the Graco is perfect for that.

Designer brands aren't the only brands that are great quality. My kids get Lands end briefcases. They hate it because they never need to be replaced (although we do have a system now where we get a new one every other year and wash and donate the old one). And they are $22 with coupons. And don't have the designer connentation.

happybeingamom

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:07 am

Oh if only we lived in an ideal world but we don't.

I can't buy shabbos clothing at the mall for my girls in elementary school because they don't have on a regular basis tznius clothing. I am not able to keep going back and forth.

Buying matching clothing costs the same as not matching clothing and I don't have to spend so much time picking clothing out. My older girls non matching clothing cost way more.

MamaBear

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 11:18 am

My younger kids wear handle downs with some new stuff mixed in. What I don't get is the families who always seem to be matching. Aside from the ridiculous appearance after a certain age, how do these families afford new matching outfits for everyone every season. Like 3-4 girls in identical higher end accessorized outfits....from what appears on the outside to be a very financially modest family. Even if they have just two outfits per season like this, that adds up to quite a bit over the year, every year.

And if it's inlaws buying it, makes me want to go ask the inlaws to contribute more to the cash strapped school instead of their grandkids' wardrobes.