Champagne Tastes? Spinoff from MyHabit has Venettinis

out-of-towner

Sun, Aug 24 2014, 6:39 pm

Scrabble123 wrote:

I'm so confused where you are disagreeing with me.
People should not need to compete and be in the same in every area. Parents should not feel pressured to buy brands. It's a society issue together with a home chinuch problem. I also have a big problem with everything you wrote, so I'm not sure what you're arguing about?

I think this "being the same" leads to more issues than just the brands.... It's a serious issue.

I'm not arguing with you. Just stating a reality that exists. It's a total paradox, and it is a real issue that no one in the Frum community has come out against all of this nonsense! Shopping in Boro Park drives me crazy! How can the average family afford to buy clothing at the prices they are asking? How come almost every young married woman is pushing a Bugaboo?

And they call this Yiddushkeit? It's Gashmiyuskeit! And this is a BIG reason why I do not want to educate me kids in a Tri-State community. There is a big focus on Gashmiyus! Okay, I grew up where my parents didn't have money and I didn't have anything name-brand, I was actually uncomfortable with name brands even if they were bought for me. But my husband grew up comfortably, also OOT, and his parents don't find the need to show off. Okay they go on vacations and things like that, they don't live poorly, but they also try to teach their kids the value of money. And they pay OOT style full tuition, which is quite high and put their kids through real college.

rain

Sun, Aug 24 2014, 9:54 pm

I buy only venettinis for my children for shabbos. but that is because I am extremely picky with their clothing and I absolutely love the style. I buy my kids a huge variety of brands. I have no problem putting my boys in 10$ jeans from H and M and buying a 140$ appaman suit for shakos for my toddlers. and my kids have absolutely no clue how much their clothing costs or how what brands they are and neither do I. if I like it, I buy it.
same goes when I shop for myself. I will buy a 250$ dress or a 10$ target skirt. I think looking good and stylish is much more important than designer. 10 year olds who have never earned a penny in their life should have no clue as to how much their clothing costs

sky

Sun, Aug 24 2014, 11:56 pm

If in 1st grade you get a Kipling knapsack that retails for 100.00, then it stands to reason you should be a getting a true designer in 10 th grade.
Or if your parents are spending $100 on shabbos clothing and $85 on shoes (both weekday and shabbos) and $45 on shabbos pajams and $85 on shabbos robes when you are in first grade then it stands to reason that when you are in 10th grade that will just increase exponentially. And nothing is handed down because everything from pajamas, to shabbos robes to winter coats to clothing must match every year. So there is no concept of re-use.

I think adults spend insane amounts on children and it just teaches those values. I step into stores in Lakewood and get sick from the prices (and grown up styles) for young children.

spring13

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 12:25 am

debsey wrote:

it is not about buying designer shoes to stop bullying. As Scrabble said, there is a desire to "be the same" and if all the girls look like clones of each other - and one girl sticks out in a"nerdy" way, that MIGHT put a target on her back. So you work on helping a kid like that blend in with the group. Not everyone. Just a kid who really doesn't handle social pressure well.

Going by what I see here and on FB, I think parents blow the issue of having the right stuff to fit in WAY out of proportion, because it's a heck of a lot easier to get your kid the "right" shoes than it is to improve their social skills or their midos. So they're pretending to help their kids by throwing money at the situation instead of dealing with actual issues. Rebbetzins should not be going around telling people how important it is to buy popular brands for their kids in order to help them fit in, as if this will make them better people.

I'd spend extra money to help ease the way for a kid with other genuine issues to contend with. I'll buy stuff on sale or on consignment or from eBay or whatever if it comes up. But I survived middle school and high school without having all the right stuff (and that was in a place where the right stuff was from Old Navy, not couture), and I won't spend money I don't have in order to teach my kids that looking right is the most important thing in life. Is my 100% normal, friendly, outgoing, popular daughter really going to lose all her friends over a pair of knockoff Uggs? Because some people make it sound like that's the case, and THAT'S REALLY MESSED UP.

out-of-towner

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 12:33 am

spring13 wrote:

This. X1000!

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 8:58 am

dancingqueen wrote:

Spending a lot of money on brand names seems to be antithetical to the kollel lifestyle, no?

I'm probably opening a whole can of worms responding to this one, but I'll bite.

Yes, spending ALOT of money on brand names does seem to be in opposition to the Kollel lifestyle...but that doesn't mean that Kollel people should all live like paupers.

I've seen this time and again, that people think anyone Kollel should look like a neb, live in a shack, and eat bread and water.

I once heard that someone quoted the mishna in Pirkei Avos to R' Meir Shapiro, to prove the point that Kollel people should live on nothing...."Kach Hi Darko shel Torah, Pas B'Melech Tochail.....". R' Shapiro retored - you are reading that with the wrong inflection. You should read it "Kach Hi Darko Shel Torah?!....Im Ata Oseh Kein, Ashrecha V'Tov Lach!" (I.e. if you can pull it off, to paraphrase another amother, bully for you!)

I think everything has to be with a balance and a cheshbon. For example, my experience with better quality shoes (w.a.g. and vennetinis vs. payless) has been positive. In fact, I bought my older DD a pair one year...she outgrew them, and last year my next DD told me not to buy her new shoes as she is perfectly happy with the hand-me-downs, which were still in good condition.

I don't feel a need to make a statement - "we are Kollel, and we are going to look like we are dressed straight out of Walmart." Whatever sacrifices I make as a Kollel wife are my own sacrifices (for example, I haven't had cleaning help in about 6 years....) but my kids are not my Karbanos. I want them to feel good about themselves, and that doesn't mean over the top, but they are allowed to look nice and have some items of quality.

That being said, I would strongly discourage my DD from blowing her babysitting money on something way out of proportion. $200 on a schoolbag is CRAZY and not teaching a child ANYTHING positive (just my very humble opinion). But my DD found a cute brand name school bag for $60 in Marshalls, and I bit my tongue and went fifty-fifty with her.

OK....let the rotten tomatoes come.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:05 am

debsey wrote:

There is a store in Lakewood that offers financing and payment plans for CHILDREN'S CLOTHES! That is a new low IMHO

I'll tell you something else about where this is coming from.

Years ago, when I made my first Yom Tov at home, I bought my kids inexpensive Yom Tov outfits at the mall. My oldest was about 5 at the time, and I didn't spend money on Shabbos shoes. My kids looked simple, neat, and clean.

Well, we went to shul and we looked like the plain Janes. Everyone was wearing matching gorgeous outfits, Shabbos shoes, etc.. from the oldest to the youngest. My oldest ,who had felt so special and excited about her new Yom Tov dress, was looking at me like, why does everyone look nicer?

I wondered to a friend of mine how people were affording this...and she told me that there are Tzedaka organizations that help large families with their clothing purchases for Yom Tov.

So here's how it happens: The rich people can afford it. The poor people get it for free. That leaves the middle class people scratching their heads and coughing it up.

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:11 am

Chayalle wrote:

There's no organization that PAYS for clothing in a standard store. There IS an organization that has a "free store" for poor and kollel families that have more than X # of kids to get new clothes. A friend of mine (Kollel wife) wasn't on their list. She was so upset when the dress she paid full price for was the dress from that gemach one year - she felt like since she qualifies and then just didn't get accepted that year, and she spent all this money on this dress from a frum manufacturer (aka piece of junk) she just felt so ripped off.

PinkFridge

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:13 am

Scrabble123 wrote:

My grandparents and parents just bought everything new for the school year: including brand new uniforms, pencil cases, calculators, backpacks, etc. even if the old stuff was still in good condition. We gave everything else aware to people who couldn't afford it. I actually remember trying to keep my things extra nice during the school year, because I knew that afterwards I would donate them to other children and I wanted them to stay in good condition for them.

My parents were not showy people at all either. They just felt that new things for a new year was important. A lot of times they were buy two backpacks, so that I can davka give one away just to teach me about giving. When tickle me elmo was popular (I believe I was 5) my father came home with ten of them. He said that he wanted to give 9 of them away to sick children, but I insisted on giving away the 10th as well. I didn't need anything, and I wasn't raised to need things either. That's actually why I find this obsession with brands in the frum community appalling, but I remind myself that not everyone is like that and that even if someone is obsessed with brands, it's probably a lack of chinuch and that they have other good qualities.

It sounds like you got wonderful chinuch and your head's on straight. My mother, who didn't come from a family of means, told me that on their birthdays, the kids in the family visited hospitals and gave out gifts.
May you continue to have the means, use them well, and raise kids who are still down to earth and manage to keep it real. (And Rain, and anyone else this applies to, all y'all too.)

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:16 am

debsey wrote:

Mrs Shanik's organization pays for clothing in a regular store. I never heard of this "free store" in Lakewood, but I did hear of it in other communities.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:18 am

debsey wrote:

There is an organization that gives people vouchers to a standard store. And the owner often gives these people a cheaper or cost price, to get their vouchers to go further. I know about this from someone who was involved in it.

In addition, there's the "free store". One of the people who runs it gave me a ride to my cousin's wedding and told me all about it.

I'm not bashing the chessed they do.....but it does up the lifestyle for everyone else.

Barbara

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:25 am

Chayalle wrote:

The American Podiatric Medical Association recommends that children not wear hand me down shoes. Shoes conform to the foot of the wearer, and will therefore not fit the second child properly. I'd personally temper that by saying that its OK to pass down barely worn shoes, like shoes purchased specifically for a simcha.

In any case, and IMNSHO, so much of this is focused on the wrong thing. I don't want to teach my child to purchase throw-away things. Its bad for the environment and therefore, to me, contrary to Judaism. Clothing is meant to last several years now that DS is a teen, and was meant to be passed on to others when he was younger. Backpacks are meant to last for years, not semesters. You have several children. Of course the basics (at the very least) should be quality, so they can be passed down. Trendy seasonal things, however, can be cheaply made.

And Chayalle, I'm sure that you're exaggerating about being expected to live on bread and water. I'm pretty sure that people would allow your family to share a couple of chicken wings on yom tov. Wink

dancingqueen

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:28 am

Chayalle wrote:

I just think that I'm disappointed that a community that is supposed to be so focused on Torah learning would have such materialistic values, as discussed here. I think it's telling that you said that not dressing in name brands is "nebby." Growing up mo, which you would think would be more materialistic, my friends weren't so fixated on designer labels. Of course there's always a popular item but it was often from the gap. I only have young kids so maybe that's changed.

So I don't think kollel has to mean a life of poverty and deprivation but yes I would think it would be less materialistic.

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:35 am

Chayalle wrote:

I kind of feel the same way about the organization that gives to kallahs. If every poor kallah is getting beautiful shaitels, clothing, furniture, dishes etc, how do the middle class people deal with it? I had a very poor relative who got married 20 years ago, an organization gave her lots of things to help set up her house, but they were obviously not the best quality. She was thrilled, it was better than what she grew up with and at least she had dishes and things that she would not have been able to buy on her own.

amother

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:38 am

glutenless wrote:

In my community families that qualified got Old Navy gift cards. Kallahs are outfitted really well, but not extravagantly. Like kitchenaid, not bosch, Macys metzias, etc.

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:40 am

dancingqueen wrote:

I agree, that is something that bothers me a lot in Lakewood. Someone once asked if I was sure my baby was comfortable in my Graco carriage shock

My very simple neighbors have very fancy baby carriages. Why??? When my first child was born, we went to a local store to buy a carriage. There were no cheap carriages to buy. When we asked for something cheaper we were told "don't you have a grandparent to buy it for you?" No, we don't have a grandparent who can afford to buy each grandchild a $300 carriage(I know now people are spending even more) Even if a grandparent was offering, why should they spend that much on a carriage?

debsey

Mon, Aug 25 2014, 9:44 am

glutenless wrote:

Mrs Shanik's organization pays for clothing in a regular store. I never heard of this "free store" in Lakewood, but I did hear of it in other communities.

I understood that Mrs Shanik gives vouchers to specific stores - not actual cash! I mean, if people were getting vouchers to the store I mentioned above (the "payment plan" store) which is so high end you get a nosebleed when you walk in - that would be extremely messed up. When I give money to Mrs Shanik, I imagine I'm paying for a NORMAL dress for yom tov or chicken, not a four hundred dollar dress for a 3 year old. It bothers me simply because with less demand those stores would CLOSE and I have no interest in artificially propping them up.