So I got the Peach magazine at my door today

Think1st

Wed, May 14 2014, 8:58 am

chaiz wrote:

Rabbanim pasken on medical issues all the time and there is no problem with that. Most good doctors have respect for that and the better ones have good relationships with rabbanim. Generally, Torah does respect what medical science has to say. Not that we take it as toras Moshe, but it is generally accepted that to listen to doctors and base psak on what doctors have to say. The key is that you have to go to a rav who has a good relationship with doctors and who understands the medical issues. Not all rabbanim do that and honest ones will tell you go to this or that rav as he knows the area. I am honestly not sure that some of the rabbanim quoted here have really done their homework. Rav Elyashiv and Rav Auerbach I do trust have done their homework. But some others have a reputation for not doing their homework so there I do not trust a word they have to say. I want names of rabbanim who know what they are talking about and have done their homework and then we can talk.

You stated some valid concerns, lets continue to discus it respectfully, may I suggest you contact Rav Shmuel Kamintzky ,who has spent plenty time with doctors on both sides . In Brooklyn Rav Teitelbuam Nirebarter rav who gives hechsher on meal mart 718-851*1221, Agudath Isreal rabonim 212-797-9000 discussed the issue & could not come to a consensus either way, The OU is re-eveluating its policy. not every rav will come to the same conclusion we should respect the rav who after listening to both sides concludes different than we expect or wish, however wouldn't you be bothered by some who refuse to listen to the other side?

CDC says vaccine delay & refusal up drastically http://www.theglobeandmail.com.....0444/

Researchers found that 39% of parents refused or delayed at least one vaccine for their child in 2008, compared to just 22% in 2003. The findings are based on data collected from nearly 9,000 U.S. children between 19 and 35 months old that were included in the CDC's 2008 national immunization survey.

How much after '08 will it become majority, ,educated intellectuals once believed earth is flat , they where not dumb just lacking vital info,

amother

Wed, May 14 2014, 11:02 am

Let's see if we can summarize this.

Rabbinic Opinions

There are a very small number of rabbis who are opposed to vaccines. There are a larger number who support them. Eg, the Lubavitcher Rebbe:

Quote:

Vaccinations

.. Regarding your question about inoculations against disease and that which unfortunately transpired in the United States some time back:

The event that occurred in the United States was at the beginning of the use of these vaccines, before the [exact] medical compound was definitively established. This is not the case at present after months of experience with the vaccine.

Therefore once a vaccine’s reliability is firmly established, there should be no hesitation in giving these inoculations. To the contrary, [their use should be encouraged].

(Igros Kodesh, Vol. XIV, p. 343)

According to Think1st, those who oppose them have clearly educated themselves and are to be believed. Those who disagree were not provided all of the information, were not asked the right questions, or refuse to educate themselves, and are not to be relied upon.

Opinions of MDs

There are a very small number of medical doctors who do not believe in vaccination. The vast majority, however, do.

According to Think1st, that clearly demonstrates that if doctors were not in the pockets of "Big Pharma" and the FDA, they would all reject vaccines.

Indeed, the fact that the anti-vax doctors have also largely rejected all mainstream medical thought further demonstrates their intelligence. Disease is not caused by germs. It is caused by unidentified "toxins" building up in the body. We must release those "toxins"; if we don't, we become ill. Since germs do not cause illness, there is no reason to fight them.

So the fact that there are those few anti-vax doctors proves that all other doctors are wrong.

The CDC

The CDC is evil, and only wants to ensure that people take vaccines so that they and their co-conspirators at Big Pharma make money.

However, on those few occasions on which the CDC has some point of agreement with Think1st, she claims it demonstrates the accuracy of her position. So, for example, the Vaccine Court rejected 5000 claims that MMR caused autism. On one occasion, however, it compensated a family whose daughter (Hannah Poling) developed a condition that was similar to or may have been autism, although it was the result of encephalopathy.

So 5000 verdicts one way show that the Vaccine Court and CDC are corrupt. One possible settlement -- it wasn't even a verdict -- the other way proves Think1st's position.

Research

If the research was done or funded by the government or the drug companies, it cannot be correct according to Think1st. We shouldn't even consider it.

If the research was funded by trial lawyers seeking to sue vaccine companies for injuries, and was found to be fraudulent, she claims it is still reliable, because it demonstrated a link between vaccines and autism,

Thimerosal

Even if it was removed from vaccines more than a decade ago, it is still causing autism. Or if its not, there are other "toxins" in vaccines that are. And that have exactly the same effects as thimerosal. Think1st cannot name the toxins, or how they work, but if you don't believe that, you don't understand how heavy metal poisoning works, and she sure isn't going to tell you.

Who Gets Sick

The vaccinated. And even if the numbers show that in NYC, 100% of the children who got sick in a recent measles outbreak were not vaccinated, Think1st will tell you that's wrong.

What have I missed?

Think1st

Wed, May 14 2014, 11:33 am

mille wrote:

Think1st, did you seriously make an account on imamother just to debate vaccines? Have you ever posted anything that wasn't related to vaccines? Perhaps you should realize that this is not a forum solely about the vaccine debate, but a community of frum women. Perhaps you should make an effort to actually contribute in other posts and post about something OTHER than your opinion on vaccines. Or, you know, join a forum that is more suited for your purpose of debating vaccines.

Because you're basically wasting your time right now and just pissing off a lot of people instead.

Therefore once a vaccine’s reliability is firmly established, there should be no hesitation in giving these inoculations. To the contrary, [their use should be encouraged].

(Igros Kodesh, Vol. XIV, p. 343)

1. But if it has not been established ?
2. Who is forcing you to read this thread ?

amother

Wed, May 14 2014, 11:38 am

Think1st wrote:

Ah, I see. Since I disagree with you, point out the bases of my disagreement, and cite authority in support of my position, I shouldn't bother reading this thread. Because what you really want to do is spew lies and scare people into not vaccinating, and its tough doing that when people actually challenge your unsupported comments.

For, what is it now, the 5th time? Explain how the "toxins" in vaccines, which no longer contain thimerosal or other mercury derivatives, are metabolized in the body and excreted as mercury, which is the mechanism that you claim causes autism.

Think1st

Wed, May 14 2014, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

So you consider formaldehyde & aluminum are consider healthy & safe, a little self respect please

They no longer contain thimerosal or other mercury derivatives, accept when they do

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

common substances found in vaccines include:

Aluminum gels or salts of aluminum which are added as adjuvants to help the vaccine stimulate a better response. Adjuvants help promote an earlier, more potent response, and more persistent immune response to the vaccine.
See also: "Aluminum in Vaccines: What you should know Adobe PDF file [2 pages]External Web Site Icon" Also available in Spanish Adobe PDF file [2 pages]External Web Site Icon
Antibiotics which are added to some vaccines to prevent the growth of germs (bacteria) during production and storage of the vaccine. No vaccine produced in the United States contains penicillin.
Egg protein is found in influenza and yellow fever vaccines, which are prepared using chicken eggs. Ordinarily, persons who are able to eat eggs or egg products safely can receive these vaccines.
Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines, (these are vaccines that use an inactive bacterial toxin to produce immunity.) It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production. Most formaldehyde is removed from the vaccine before it is packaged.
Monosodium glutamate (MSG) and 2-phenoxy-ethanol which are used as stabilizers in a few vaccines to help the vaccine remain unchanged when the vaccine is exposed to heat, light, acidity, or humidity.
Thimerosal is a mercury-containing preservative that is added to vials of vaccine that contain more than one dose to prevent contamination and growth of potentially harmful bacteria.

Most formaldehyde is removed is that 99% or just 51% ?

ally

Wed, May 14 2014, 1:04 pm

Think1st wrote:

Perhaps, if you know how to transform metals, you can turn some scrap iron into gold for me?
Come to think of it, this may be a good way to fund our schools and alleviate the tuition crisis.

amother

Wed, May 14 2014, 1:07 pm

Think1st (and think again if you can): What you and people of your ilk may not understand, is that this thread is not merely a war of ideas. If it were, you may be right, that no one is being forced to read this thread.
However the erroneous beliefs that you posit are not only delusional but dangerous to all of us! It's like the proverbial man in a boat who decides to drill a hole in his cabin. When confronted, he says, "what's it to you? It's MY room!"
Except that you actually want to bring more and more people over to your way of thinking thus causing that hole in the boat to get bigger and bigger, drowning us all before we could fix the hole!
It's not a game ("bring on the attacks! I'm enjoying this!"). This is serious business involving lives!
True, most people who vax have not researched the subject as much as you have, and merely rely blindly on their doctors. THATS WHY WE GO TO DOCTORS. I would much rather trust someone who went to years of medical school, and learned from scores of medical research than some "anti-vaxing quacks" who cherry pick the research and manipulate data to serve an agenda.
However, many, many impressionable (if naive) parents may be swayed by all this dangerous propaganda, and may as a result choose to not vaccinate, thus further putting us all in danger. Can you live with yourself if children die as a result?? Or are you too big-headed to even acknowledge that possibility?? We are not talking fever here. We are talking death and paralysis from these dreaded diseases.
Finally, you need to confront one very basic simple question. It's so simple, that it may have escaped you in your quest to find and post more and more articles to further your agenda: Lets say for argument's sake that you are right. Vaccines cause autism. In what percentage of children? Is it 1% ? 5%? Less? More? (Forgive me, I haven't read all your claims so I don't know) So we acknowledge that in a very small percent of children, autism may develop as a result of vaccines.
Now, let's look at the alternative. Without vaccines, epidemics break out killing thousands upon thousands if people. Survivors are left paralyzed, maimed and disabled for life.
So on one hand vaccines control epidemics. On the other, they may cause (on a small scale) autism on a tiny percent of kids (YOU SAY). So even if we suppose there may be truth to it, it's still the lesser of two evils , by a very wide margin! Isn't that obvious???
And if you can't see clearly that vaccines have controlled epidemics, then I really feel sorry for you. Because that's a level of "blindness" that borders on criminal.

Frumdoc

Wed, May 14 2014, 1:20 pm

I will repeat

Frumdoc wrote:

Delusional disorders involve holding fixed beliefs that are definitely false but remain plausible and are believed in strongly by the sufferer. Having a delusional disorder is not a form of schizophrenia, with which it is often confused. Instead, delusions involve situations that can actually occur for the individual for at least a month or more in duration and these beliefs generally appear normal for the sufferer. Overall, the person's behaviors are generally normal apart from the delusional element.

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) lists six types of delusional disorders: erotomanic, grandiose, jealous, persecutory, somatic, and mixed. Each of these disorders is explored here to aid in its recognition. And remember as you learn more about these disorders that the mind is an incredible force and is capable of many strange imaginings that it then insists are real.

There is no arguing with delusions, as they are not based in evidence and the poor sufferer will interpret all evidence to fit their own fixed belief system. One can only try to minimise harm to the rest in whatever way you think is appropriate.

amother

Wed, May 14 2014, 1:46 pm

Think1st wrote:

You're just throwing things up against the wall and hoping that people are stupid enough not to think about it.

The only vaccines administered to children in the US that contain thimerosal are flu vaccines in multi-dose vials. NO OTHER VACCINE IN THE US IS ADMINISTERED USING MULTI-DOSE VIALS. And most flu vaccines are not, either. Now, since only about 50% of US kids receive the flu vaccine, its not likely that a large number receive it in multi-dose vials. And yet you claim that you know that autism is related to vaccines because children without autism excrete mercury after a vaccine, but autistic children don't. Where is the mercury coming from, as its not coming from thimerosal? Why did the autism rate go up dramatically AFTER thimerosal was removed?

You mention formaldehyde and aluminum. How are they transformed into mercury? Or is it that you're claiming that they now cause autism, in lieu of thimerosal. That they are "toxins" that act in exactly the same way, causing exactly the same symptoms and disabilities as thimerosal did. Which, of course, makes no sense chemically.

Fun fact. MMR, which is the vaccine most cited by anti-vax advocates, never contained a preservative. Nope, it never contained thimerosal.

Think1st

Wed, May 14 2014, 2:39 pm

amother wrote:

Dear Anon,

1. I agree with you regarding the hole in the ship,except that abuse of antibiotics is the hole creating super-bugs

http://www.cnn.com/2010/HEALTH.....ions/
(CNN) -- Giving children antibiotics for ear infections does little to speed their recovery while raising the risk of some side effects, according to a study published Tuesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

2.So I go to a Doctor MD who did research the matter,asking a Doctor who trusts the AAP/CDC/ACIP blindly is the blind leading the blind. In med school you do not even learn vaccine ingredients, even AAP spokesman Paul Offit acknowledges that.

http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....f5036

Autism according to CDC is skyrocketing
http://www.cdc.gov/media/relea......html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/au.....-span-cdc/

Cancer expected to effect 1 in 3, & 33% not even surviving 5 years
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/c.....ancer

Infertility Percent of women ages 15-44 with impaired fecundity: 10.9% http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/fertile.htm

Most vaccine inserts admit (section13.1) that they have not been tested for cancer & infertility safety
http://www.google.com/search?q.....el=sb

My claims re, Autism skyrocketing or admissions by CDC

If anyone is promoting quackery it is you, maybe tomorrow you will produce a vaccine concoction for cholera & typhoid that is a non issue in any developed nation next you will claim that since it killed 1,000s years ago & now is eradicated that you deserve credit

Just talk to any parent of vaxed & unvaxed kids see the light

Look @ this UN report page by page developed nations high infant mortality goes hand in hand with higher vaccine ab-use http://www.childinfo.org/files.....n.pdf

So who is the criminal ? shock

You can continue to believe the earth is flat, the debunked myth trans fat is good saturated fat is bad &

Last edited by Think1st on Wed, May 14 2014, 4:05 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Wed, May 14 2014, 3:49 pm

Think1st wrote:

What do antibiotics have to do with vaccines, vaccine efficacy, or vaccine safety? Or do you just enjoy non-sequiturs?

Think1st wrote:

2.So I go to a Doctor MD who did research the matter,asking a Doctor who trusts the AAP/CDC/ACIP blindly is the blind leading the blind. In med school you do not even learn vaccine ingredients, even AAP spokesman Paul Offit acknowledges that.

http://pediatrics.aappublicati.....f5036

You claim to go to a doctor who doesn't believe that germs cause illness, or, as his website states, "most illnesses in children are not caused by infection." Rather, he believes that toxins get backed up in our bodies.

Of course, in that case, there goes your antibiotic resistant germ complaint. Who cares about that. Germs don't cause illness. Toxins in the body do, and all antibiotics do is "drive wastes deeper in the body."

In any case, what difference does it make if a doctor knows what ingredients go into a vaccine? My father is an auto mechanic. He can fix your car. He cannot tell you what metals, with what level of tolerance, go into the exhaust system.

Think1st wrote:

Autism according to CDC is skyrocketing
http://www.cdc.gov/media/relea......html
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/au.....-span-cdc/

Yes. It is. Its lowest in the state with the highest vaccination rate, and has been going up since the removal of thimerosal. But you keep claiming it must be the cause.

YOU, and people like you, are the cause of the autism epidemic. Idiots like you who scare people, and who keep forcing the expenditure of more funds to disprove the load of lies you keep spewing, and who keep researchers from trying to find out what really goes on.

Think1st wrote:

Cancer expected to effect 1 in 3, & 33% not even surviving 5 years
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/c.....ancer

And you think that's all caused by vaccines?

Cancer is not a single disease. We know that there are types of breast cancer that are genetic. That a large portion of cervical cancer is caused by HPV (that you refuse to vaccinate against, because you claim that Jewish women don't get cervical cancer.) Mesothelioma is asbestos related. Lung cancer is related to smoking in many cases.

Moreover, the risk of cancer increases as you age. Of course, your average 70 year old didn't receive the same vaccines as a child that are now given.

No matter. If its a bad thing, vaccines caused it, according to you. How? Who cares. You say it, we have to believe it.

Think1st wrote:

Infertility Percent of women ages 15-44 with impaired fecundity: 10.9% http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/fertile.htm[

Now, let's see. A woman who is 44 today was born in 1970. Those halcyon days when children didn't receive nearly so many vaccines, and the rate of autism was really low.

In any case, do you know that the number is INCREASING with the increase in vaccines?

think1st wrote:

Most vaccine inserts admit (section13.1) that they have not been tested for cancer & infertility safety
http://www.google.com/search?q.....el=sb

You know what else hasn't been tested for infertility safety? Disposable diapers. Salt. Quinoa. Cell phones. Power steering.

Now explain the MECHANISM that causes infertility.

Think1st wrote:

My claims re, Autism skyrocketing or admissions by CDC

If anyone is promoting quackery it is you, maybe tomorrow you will produce a vaccine concoction for cholera & typhoid that is a non issue in any developed nation next you will claim that since it killed 1,000s years ago & now is eradicated that you deserve credit

Just talk to any parent of vaxed & unvaxed kids see the light

So who is the criminal ? shock

ROFL*.

You throw a bunch of things against a wall, then scream AHA! IT'S VACCINES!

No evidence. No theories of causation. I'm beginning to agree that you are delusional.