When to potch? | Imamother

5*Mom

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 12:50 am

Let's leave aside the potching for the moment. If you know your child was momentarily *stupid*, a very common malady among 5-yr-olds (and 10-yr-olds, and 15-yr-olds...) and you've had a discussion about what she did and why it was *stupid* and she recognizes where she went wrong, then it sounds to me like she isn't likely to repeat this particular offense. Why then would you need to punish at all? What would be the point? Haven't you already achieved chinuch here?

Onisa

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:19 am

The problem here as I see is mostly like are you really ok with holding to consiqyences of your potching.
It is like in court it is really hard to be judge because one day you may rule wrong and crush smbdies life.
Imagine that one day you gave a potch and then regretted it? Now what? Say sorry little child, I hit you for no reason. Is that enough?
It is really easy to oppologise if you take away privelliges give them back, easy if you put on a chair, let them get out of chair . But how to turn back the potch feeling?

Look my mother didnt potch me in the begining but she never stated no. So... One day I wasnt reading enough good for her made up standarts. She was teaching me ( I was 3 y o) to read but I wasnt doing it well enough for a long time about two hours. She potched me. Why? Because by her view point and view point of my grandmother as well who had supported her. It was sillyof me not to learn faster and better, that im crushing my future right now. They didnt have any normal parenting or. Child development books (1992 in russia) they were 100 procent sure, they are doing the right thing.
Today my mother regrets. But she cant pay back. My mother contunied potching me for not so good perfomance at the extracuriculurms. I was ideal in all other ways. You kniw why??? I was terryfied. I was terrified of my mother soo much. You would never know it, scince being terrified was a wrong emotion to have. I was acting happily and smily all the time.
When my brother came into the world, he was autistic, my mother lowered her standarts radistically. He never got potched. She read tons of literature she became knoledgeble.
But she never said I wont potch my daughter. She didnt for a while.
But then she started to think into depression, her mother died, times werent smooth. And here it started she found that hitting me was the solution. I was t small anymore, it wasnt potching it was agressive hitting. It was unberaeble.
She thinks it startedwhen she was in depression. No! It started when I was three years old.

You tell yourself this behavior is sometimes ok. And by this you are putting yourself on a very risky path, scince the lines of "ok" can move and we are all humans.

There were tons of stupid things I was doing but my parents didnt care. Do I blame them? No it were my decisions my actions, im responsible.
But I do blame for potching and hitting.

Delores

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:21 am

The way I see it, hitting does not achieve discipline but it can "condition" a child. I too would hit for a kid running in the street because I want to condition him/her never to do that. It is not something they need to "think about" also my child used to pick his nose and eat it so I whacked his hand away. This did not hurt him it was not meant to hurt but rather send a physical reminder that we "don't do that". When he sticks his hands in his pants on the other hand I NEVER EVER whack it because I want to discuss it and get him to understand why it is not appropriate to do that in public and where it is okay to do that. I don't care if he has bad associations with picking his nose is (something that whacking his hand will cause) but I do not want him to associate his hands in his pants with something altogether negative. So to answer your question: I don't think hitting should be used as a punishment but I do think there are times when it's okay.

5*Mom

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:32 am

Delores wrote:

I'd like to point out here that teaching and learning are not synonymous. You may think you are teaching him one thing--conditioning him to something--while he may be learning something else entirely--becoming conditioned to something you did not intend. You may be conditioning him to whack someone's hand when he is displeased with what they are doing. You also may be conditioning him to accept a whack--from anybody--because he was doing something they were displeased with, etc... Be careful with *conditioning* that is not done under carefully controlled laboratory conditions. With animals.

Delores

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 2:55 am

5*Mom wrote:

I'd like to point out here that teaching and learning are not synonymous. You also may be conditioning him to accept a whack--from anybody--because he was doing something they were displeased with, etc... Be careful with *conditioning* that is not done under carefully controlled laboratory conditions. With animals.

Interesting point but in a sense anything you "teach" your child might be learned differently. In many ways what you're saying is true of any kind of disciple.
I think every mom (or dad for that matter) wants her child to listen to her and trust her but we don't want our kids trusting everyone.
Yes, I whack his hand away when its in his nose (and then his mouth) and he is "conditioned" to break that habit but of course we have discussed endlessly that others may not touch him, slap him force him to do stuff etc. Just like my husband and I can hug and kiss him but others can't. The fact is when an older kid pushed him he immediately told me and we had it taken care of so I do think a child can know the difference between something coming from a parent or someone else.

deena19k

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:07 am

Delores wrote:

Honestly, I think that's really messed up to smack him for picking his nose. Yes, it's gross but there are other ways to deal with it. Like this, your son is learning that when he wants to pick his nose he should check that you're not around to see and hurt him and then go ahead and pick. My dd 3.5 is in the picking nose stage as well. I just tell her that that's not nice, we don't do that, and then I find her an activity to do with her hands so that her hands will be occupied. Eventually this habit will pass.

My4Jewels

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:25 am

I cannot believe that in this day and age parents are still hitting their children. Please NEVER hit your child ever. Dont hit them lightly, dont hit them even though you give them a warning, dont hit them even if you wait 5 minutes before doing. DO NOT EVER HIT YOUR CHILDREN!!! Others have said the same but I must also say that you are teaching your children that hitting is ok . it's ok for them to hit people when somebody does something to them that they feel is wrong and it's also ok to be hit by somebody. How could you want to give that message to them? In my preschool class I say over and over "we use our words we never use our hands" And if your children would be in my class they would be thinking well that's not true ofcourse we use our hands my ima does. So although you may get your children to listen to you by not doing whatever behavior you find is wrong you ARE teaching them that hitting and being hit is ok.

amother

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:33 am

allrgymama wrote:

To be clear -- my children are not afraid of me.

And they get the choice -- hand, face, tushie, wherever. It's not my first choice, but sometimes they choose it. Also, I potch fairly lightly; it's not like any body part is red after I've potched it. They're usually more devastated at the idea of the potch than the pain from the actual potch.

How do you know they are not afraid of you? Or at least nervous around you right after they have been potched?
When I was possibly 10 or so, I did something very chuzpadik to my father. He quickly slapped me across the face. He had never ever done that before in his life. He also never did anything like that again in his life. It is more than 20 years later and I will never forget it. My father apologized profusely after that and every now and then it comes up in conversation and my father weeps about it.
And of course they are devastated about being potched rather than the force or lack there of from the potch.
I am just trying to say that a child, being hit, by a parent, is going to remember that and I am sure there is a little bit of fear involved. Trust me.
As for what you said, that your children choose that punishment, what are their other options for punishment? It does not have to always be something physical. I like what someone wrote, if they write on the wall, they have to clean it. I think the punishment should directly reflect whatever they did wrong. That is also a very good teaching tool for them to learn what not to do.

5*Mom

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:37 am

Delores wrote:

I think every mom (or dad for that matter) wants her child to listen to her and trust her but we don't want our kids trusting everyone.

Trust her to... hit him?? Do you not see how you are sending very conflicting messages here? Should he trust you because you hit him? Do you hit him because he trusts you? Does trusting mean getting hit?

Delores wrote:

Yes, I whack his hand away when its in his nose (and then his mouth) and he is "conditioned" to break that habit

Honest question: Are you thinking he will continue to pick his nose for the rest of his life unless you condition him now, in this way, not to? Can you not think of any way to teach him to clean his nose in a more hygienic, socially appropriate way other than to "whack his hand away?"

Delores wrote:

but of course we have discussed endlessly that others may not touch him, slap him force him to do stuff etc. Just like my husband and I can hug and kiss him but others can't.

Let's take this one. Presumably, you teach him that others cannot hug or kiss him because it is too familiar and they are strangers, but you and your husband can hug and kiss him because you are his parents who love and care for him. Others cannot hit him but you, his parents who love and care for him, can hit him. So we can hit the people we love and care for. Do you not see that this is problematic? Confusing?

Delores

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:43 am

deena19k wrote:

I obviously disagree but remember its not a punishment (or really a smack) its a physical reminder to break a habit. Yes if I give him a toy he will take the toy but when I am not around he will do it because it is an absentminded habit. I don't think he actually thought about it or did it to clean his nose it was just a bad habit that needed to stop.

amother

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:47 am

Delores wrote:

Completely disagree with you about hitting a child for doing some bad habit. My child picks their fingers. Its actually terrible. But I would never think to hit them each time they do that. That would just instill fear in them and they would find another place to pick their fingers not in my presence. Instead, you (general you) should find ways to have their hands find other things to do so they are distracted. I, for example, bought my child silly putty and that helped a lot.

Why the negative feedback to our children instead of positive?

imaima

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:47 am

sneakermom wrote:

Am I the only one who thinks it's degrading to ask someone where they want the potch?

It doesn't feel right to me.

Making a child wait is also unsettling to me.

If you want to hit a child do it quickly and get over it. It's not like there's a special Bracha to make beforehand or anything.

For the record I don't condone hitting nor can I say I've never given a potch. There's once or twice I've done it and saw it worked. The rest of the times I regretted it after.

Like others have said other methods work just fine with less damage.

I have definitely given a potch, but I have found that it doesn't really work past 2 years. I do occasionally give a potch to a 2 y.o. who does something he knows not to do - e.g. comes to the hot oven, says "hot" smiles and touches it.

Depending on the level of the child, when they start learning at home and in the daycare that we don't hit and we use words, it is very confusing and upsetting for them to get hit, because YOU are the one who doesn't play by the rules. They lose desire to obey and strive to be better pretty quickly. They definitely don't get the difference between potch and hit even if you as a mother think there is a difference.

Delores

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:50 am

My4Jewels wrote:

I can't believe that you can't believe that people would choose to parent their kids in a way you wouldn't. Look, I see your point but in reality I don't abuse my kids they know the difference between hitting out of anger or to get your way and getting hit for running in the street or having their hand whacked away when they're picking their noses and eating it. But maybe it's because of how I am as a parent and not this one individual thing. You may not believe this but I am a good mom and my kids are nice sweet, emotionally well balanced kids.

Delores

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 3:56 am

5*Mom wrote:

wow you kind of took things out of context- the trust thing had nothing to do with hitting. I'm not going to start defending myself and "proving" that my kids love and trust me. My kids know the difference between their parents and other people meaning if they learn from my behavior that they can whack their kids' hands away when their kids pick their noses I have no problem with that. Not all people we love are treated the same. You have relations with your husband but not with your kids, You can whack your kids hand not your husbands etc. Yes you "love" both but the treatment and responsibility towards each is different.

the world's best mom

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 4:12 am

Most people I know agree that a potch is appropriate for when a kid does something very dangerous. If done only in this situation, the children will trust their parents to raise them properly, saving potches for the few times when it is absolutely necessary. They do not get scarred for life from a potch or two.

Recently, I saw my ds (who has special needs) do something dangerous, but I didn't potch him because I saw that pain wouldn't teach him a lesson. He touched my blech to check if it was hot after Shabbos ended- luckily it had cooled off by then. I knew a potch wouldn't help because he had done the same thing 2 weeks earlier- on Shabbos, while the flame was on- and he burned 3 fingers. If that didn't stop him from doing it again, a potch wouldn't help either.

5*Mom

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 4:15 am

amother wrote:

This is actually a great way to teach important life-long skills to a child: that of recognizing a harmful habit and replacing it with something else to prevent themselves from continuing with the habit. If you talk it through so they understand the process, this is a skill that can be carried over to other situations in their lives which will most assuredly come up. Much more constructive and lasting. Yes, you can even do this with a 3-yr-old. IMO, potching in this situation is lazy parenting.

My4Jewels

Thu, Apr 03 2014, 4:52 am

Delores wrote:

Listen we all tell ourselves things to make ourselves feel better about what we are doing. So I believe that you believe you are doing the right thing by hitting your children. I think sometimes we adults assume that kids understand things on our level when the reality is they do not. So you may think that your kids understand the difference between difference types of hitting but just maybe you are wrong. And I guess I am conservative so on the slim chance that your children are receiving a damaging message don't you think you should err on the side of caution and find another way?