Older single women having babies on their own, WDYT?

Odelyah

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:08 pm

There is one young woman with whom our family is very close, who her mother conceived via donor insemination. This is not statistically significant; if I hear that others know many children born under the same circumstances who are doing great, I'd be very happy to hear it. But as far as my friend, I don't know... her background is a big secret. It was a big deal that she told me. And the fact that she has no father is a huge hole in her life. In fact she doesn't say she has no father. I've heard her say "everyone has a father". She considers the donor her father, and it's completely tragic because it was an anonymous donation and she has no way of ever meeting him (and even if there was, it's unlikely he would want a relationship with her or consider her his daughter). Based purely on my experience with her, I feel it's really not an ideal way to bring a child into the world. I know her mother had good intentions; she would have liked to marry and have children the usual way, but it didn't happen. But I feel like in a situation like that, there are so many children in foster care who need parents, that maybe that is a better route? Meaning rather than knowingly, actively conceiving a child into a not-ideal (completely fatherless) situation, a single mother can do a great chesed and rescue a child or children who are already in a not-ideal situation, that she did not create, and greatly improve their situation by giving them a loving and stable (albeit single-parent) home.

On the other hand, if you asked my friend, I'm sure she would rather have been born under those circumstances, than not at all! But I know it's hard for her.

And ultimately I can't possibly judge a woman who desperately wants to have her own child, and doesn't seem to have any reasonable alternative.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:24 pm

November wrote:

Here's a question: when a woman chooses to go this route, isn't she necessarily putting dating and even the possibility of finding Mr Right (or Mr Okay and Pudgy, in deference to Dolly LOL

) aside for several years?

I'm the mother who posted that I had a child prior to marriage earlier.

I personally found that men I dated preferred that I had not been married and that there was less "baggage" and "complications" with me compared to somebody who had an ex around.

While having a child is perhaps an impediment to dating easily, it can be done. Sure, it's nicer to date before you have had a child if only not to have that "frazzled-from-dealing-with-toddler" look but you know, Mr Right/Okay/Pudgy will just need to be a mensch who is ok with not marrying Ms Perfect and taking on another man's child.

Just my personal experience...

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:31 pm

Childlessness is an agonising option for so many women, I find it hard to condemn anyone thinking of having a child on their own but I do feel upset that the emphasis is on having a baby oneself rather than adopting

I donated my eggs to a close friend going through IF, she was a frum married woman who was pursuing any avenue open to her to be a mother. When she realised she was not going to fall pregnant inspite of years of prayer and medical intervention, she adopted a little boy and her life has been transformed. Her home is a place of extraordinary happiness, she did this after her husband sought a divorce and went on to marry another younger woman and start a family with her. My friend has spoken openly that the divorce was the best thing to happen to her, she has her own family and is a mother on her terms, she said once she saw the number of kids needing a home, the need for her to conceive suddenly seemed secondary, she was hungry to take a child into her life, not to experience pregnancy or labour.

Personally I have neither the courage or audacity to seek conceiving a child on my own.I

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:35 pm

amother wrote:

While having a child is perhaps an impediment to dating easily, it can be done.

Ok, so I'm quoting myself now but if you know of a single mother with a child, instead of wondering whether or not her life choice is a sound one OFFER TO BABYSIT WHILE SHE GOES ON DATES.

If you find her child being fatherless so abhorrent SET HER UP WITH MENSCHEN AND BABYSIT HER CHILD/REN WHILE SHE GOES ON DATES.

Seriously. All the time you may spend thinking/posting here about the moral implications of her choices/how on earth the child can fit into frum society will be absolutely 100% better off spent TRYING TO MAKE HER A SHIDDUCH. At worst, the date goes badly but the single mother has had some precious time with adult company because you have done the chessed of babysitting vs. judging.

My 2c again! Flower

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:37 pm

I have a lot of older singles in my life. As much as they try to put on a brave face, is it gehenom to them that they don't have a spouse, while everyone else does. So what's going to happen when their child grows up and wants to date/get married? How can the mother not be jealous in a small way? This does not seem like a healthy situation. Once the child is married how will she be able to relate to her child? I can see a lot of problems, and a very unhealthy relationship.
I knew of someone who did this, guess what, she conceived twins. Unfortunately it was too much to handle on her own and she became an abusive mother. What would happen if she gave birth to a child with special needs? Of course these things can happen to anyone, but those stories don't all have happy endings either. This needs to be thought out very carefully.
Guess why I got married, b/c I wanted children. A lot of older singles say to me, oh you're so lucky, you got married young. I'm lucky b/c I chose to get married. A lot of the older singles in my life have the choice similar to mine, but they complain about this and that about the guy - these people tell me everything, I know that for a fact. Well my dh has the same habits, so really I'm lucky b/c I ignored those habits/problems. Yes they are annoying but I have my kids. I don't want to chas v' shalom put down older singles b/c their life is VERY hard, but I hear the same issues from all of my friends independently. So to most people I would say, if you want kids, get married. And for the ones who's situations are more complicated, I really do feel bad and hope Hashem will give them a nechama.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:39 pm

I want to muse that someone who "hasn't found anybody" or for whom "it hasn't happened" has made a lot of very conscious and specific choices, over time, to say no.

She has said no.

That is different from "it" or "found". It's a word. A short, sharp word. She has decided. She has decided against several men. Very, very probably because they were just not her cuppa.

Actual crazy, bizarre, dysfunctional people, they probably weren't all.

As for MO and all that, it is probably easier to live calmly and civilizedly, if not excitedly, in a more rigorous, rigid, form of orthodoxy, as a married couple who were never in fairy-tale mentality about each other. It's more structured, and both parties have fewer options. That has to mean fewer temptations, fewer surprises, and a more predictable life.

As for the woman whose boyfriends did not propose, she tried to do the choosing. They did not choose her. She chose them, but then they didn't choose her.

It is better to choose among people who the shadchan says want to marry you.

That does indeed mean not choosing yourself.

It does not mean meeting men on your own.

If you meet men on your own, you are deciding whom to chat up. You are turning sweetly away from the less snappy looking chap behind the palm tree who would actually be a friend, companion, and father. But his appearance does not excite. As you are in an entertainment setting, you want to be entertained. He loses your smiles to another man who is entertaining.

And that's what, and all, he is. Well, you were in that setting. Entertaining. Pretty. Soft carpet. Stuff to nibble and drink. Fun time. You will see people through the lens: "who here is fun?" Why not. It's that kind of event.

Fun has nothing to do with "who would actually marry me and have our kid?"
Nothing, nothing at all. Call a Hannah.

That is a pure waste of time. It doesn't matter whom you want to chat up, it matters who wants to marry you.

I mean, if you want a child and a father for it. If that's what you want. Many say they want that, but they want to do the choosing. That isn't strategically effective and is a boneheaded way to proceed if that is your objective. And, frankly, being chosen usually is.

We can only choose among those who want us. We can't convince someone outside that set to become a member of that set.

And, then, what is "want"? The boyfriends did "want," but they didn't want to marry her. She got confused about what "want" means.

Smoke got in her eyes and she missed her pitch and lost her ball.

She should call a Hannah and stop going out. It just doesn't work.

Last edited by Dolly Welsh on Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:53 pm; edited 2 times in total

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:42 pm

amother wrote:

So now we're yet again bashing conservative Jews, and throwing the MO in with them.

Once again, MO thrown under the bus. Sometimes I wonder why I even come to this site, I do. The only thing that makes up for being bashed as not being frum enough again, and again, and again, is coming to read and roll my eyes at all the crazy mishagas the "frummer" among us go put up with.

you know, this sort of reply always makes me wonder. do you genuinely think it is unrealistic to expect MO to be thrown in with conservsativism? why? because it makes you uncomfortable? instead of the eye rolls, think about this:

the single most destructive thought process, that has broken down the underpinnings of jewish life throughout the generations, has always been "times have changed". inevitably, those who follow this path bring forth more and more changes until their societies only resemble halachic jewish life on a surface level. the answer to how they could make such massive changes is again, always the same. yep, sadly, it's the same whether your mo, conservative, reform, or any other revision of jewish thought. "TIMES HAVE CHANGED!" the slogan is so convincing, so ingrained, so clearly RIGHT, that anyone who questions it is just wrong, and fanatic, and fundamentalist, and argumentative, and separatist, and and and.

you know why you have a problem with all the things I lumped together? because everyone who deviates from traditional hashkafa has one clear commonality: my understanding of how times have changed is the right one; dont just lump me together with everyone else!

of course. so sorry (eye roll) I didn't realize how much better your application of "times have changed" was than everyone else's.

in any case, despite your snarky reply, I did not bash anyone. rereading what I wrote, I think only someone with low self esteem or the hidden but repressed knowledge that what I stated was true would have felt that way. I pointed out that when we change hashkafa to reflect the times, we open the door to the argument that times have changed, and that argument tends to lead to unforeseen conclusions, as has been demonstrated amply throughout jewish history. that was all I said, and the examples I used have all been referenced on this site. if "you" do not subscribe to one or two of those things, then I was not referring to you with regard to those examples.

I hope I have made myself clear.

as an aside, do you really think chazal, the rishonim, and the acharonim were unaware of the idea of insemination without a partner? this was not done (I am not the greatest expert, so if you know of an example please post the source (gemara or shaila uteshuva) so I can ask dh to look into the context), even though the possibility was known about.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:44 pm

[quote="amother"] So what's going to happen when their child grows up and wants to date/get married? How can the mother not be jealous in a small way? This does not seem like a healthy situation. Once the child is married how will she be able to relate to her child? I can see a lot of problems, and a very unhealthy relationship.
quote]

AMother who had a child before marriage here again.

I personally would be delighted when IY"H my child marries, I can't fathom myself or any other mother in this situation being jealous in the slightest. Although I am married now, I felt this way before I was married as well. I would be thrilled/relieved when my child marries IY"H. Will there be a load of families who will not let their children date/marry my child due to our "flawed" background? Highly likely but then I would never want my child to marry into such small-mindedness anyway.

My 2c yet again...

kjb

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:44 pm

Is it really possible to regret being born? And even if it is, why should a jewish child who is a) incontrovertibly jewish through his mother, b) not a mamzer or halachically tainted in any way, c) very much wanted and loved, regret being born? Yes, I think it is possible that nasty things will be whispered, fingers will be pointed, and there will be problems with sidduchim in certain circles. But who should be ashamed of that? The blameless child, the loving and committed mother, or the narrow minded members of frum society that make this wanted child's life difficult?

This is obviously NOT the ideal way to have a child. But is it more ideal to have a child within some of abusive and dysfunctional marriages that we so often hear about on Imamother? Yes its good to have a father, but if he beats your mother up, not so much.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:48 pm

"Annoying habits" means

he's a man.

After a certain amount of time a woman can lose her ability to be tolerant of that difference the other gender inevitably brings with it.

She should develop an amused admiration for his annoying habits, unless they are truly ill-bred and they usually aren't. They are just male.

Otherwise she is breaking the commandment to love your fellow. It doesn't say love him if he doesn't have any annoying habits.

It's that gender difference that is bothering them. That is tragic.

That is a woman who is not going to be a terribly good mother to any male child she conceives with a sperm donor.

She no longer can stand males, and half of her kids are going to be male.

She needs to remind herself that everything has a right to be what it is; and men are Like That because they just are. It's not an annoying habit. It's G-d's creation and should be appreciated in that spirit.

Odelyah

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:48 pm

amother wrote:

I don't think it's fair to say that. I think most mothers want more for their children than they want for themselves. I think most single mothers of any variety are as thrilled when their children find their bashert as any other mother. They want their children to have every happiness, and not suffer in ways they may have suffered themselves.

ectomorph

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 8:56 pm

amother wrote:

what is the point of this thread?
you asked people "wdyt", but then when they state an opinion disagreeing with you you note your disapproval of their opinion. sometimes you "partially" agree, to validate your own disagreement, and you note your approval of anyone who agrees with you.

is this thread here to make you feel good about yourself?
in any case, without any histrionics, I also find it hard to approve of this womans actions. all through jewish history people with very little in common other than the desire to raise beautiful jewish families have made their partnership work towards this goal. our generation is the first, possibly second, where we see this breaking down, because of our frailties.

the hope, and I have heard this expressed from much (older and) wiser people than me, is that once people have gotten older and have lost much of their foolish pride and fantasies about life, they can settle down in a realistic and practical marriage, as woman have ALWAYS done throughout our history. the idea that having a child without a father is better than this is difficult for me to swallow.

the only argument I hear is "times have changed, people are different, we have to deal with the realities of our dor". of course, this argument always starts off without changing halacha but just the hashkafa of a community. strangely, the communities that follow this logic never seem to end up violating halacha, they just end up with a different hashkafic outlook.

for instance, and I dont mean this sarcastically, conservative judaism comes in many flavors. they all think they are the only ones truly following halacha, which has a right to be altered because "times have changed". certainly modern orthodoxy is no exception. in many communities mixed swimming is perfectly acceptable. ask a mainstream orthodox (whatever that is) jew if thats ok, and the answer will invariably be no. so how is it justified? ah. "we have a different hashkafa" well what was the basis of the change in your hashkafic outlook in the first place?

....................

oh. times have changed.

well. can this possibly lead to a bad thing, single mothers having children? you want my opinion: yes. and I think single girls should not be allowed to the mikvah, and I think you should try and keep your children away from non-jewish literature, wherein the concept of separation between genders in non-existent, and I think your should not have a tv, and I think you should strive to not have internet in the house, and I think it is not ok for a normal healthy teenage boy to have a girlfriend, and I would not want my son to settle down happily with a homosexual partner, and all the other things that are espoused on the heilig pages of imamother.

even though times have changed.
because im one of those hopelessly old-fashioned people who think the secret of jewish survival, our immortal existence against the flow of time, is our finely honed hashkafic existence, which has ALWAYS defied the times, and is indeed timeless, and the true beautiful secret of the jews: we have the secret knowledge of how a society should look act and behave, and it is our challenge to not be influenced by those around us.

just my opinion

interesting!

ectomorph

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 9:02 pm

amother wrote:

Why are you amother? You are making excellent points.

Dolly Welsh

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 9:03 pm

Yes, usually, rationally. I do know of one case, just one, where the mother is very bitter that her children have it better than she had.

People usually follow their models.

No, it would not be great to have generation after generation of phantom fathers. But why shouldn't the daughter do the same as her mother? It's her model.

That would make it permissible for women to permanently find men more trouble than they are worth, in general, over generations, and that isn't the way we think.

We are all about tackling the interesting and hard job of finding the other gender worth the trouble of getting to really know as a spouse, not a mistress, or brood mare, or brood stallion. We've got FOUR Imahot. With names and roles and personalities.

If you trivialize men, define them as dispensable, they will return the favor. That might not end well.

imasinger

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 9:13 pm

Disclaimer: I have a dear friend who is single, and adopted a baby.

As far as I can read here, nobody is talking about adoption by a single mom being an issue. For my friend and her DD, I know that the experience has been largely wonderful so far (the girl is 12 now), even with the occasional thoughtless and prejudiced remark from random people.

Yet, plenty of people here on this thread are objecting to a child a) being raised without a father, and b) growing up and possibly marrying someone off limits without knowing it. Both are possible but unlikely with either adoption or sperm donation from a non Jew.

Others comment on the difference in intention. They are more comfortable with a situation where the intention was to have a two parent family, but due to divorce or death, a single mom is raising a child or children. But a woman who chooses to be in this situation must not be acting according to Torah.

I see several problems with their discomfort.

With regard to the first issue, it would seem that while sperm donation, if approved by a rav for a couple, is OK. And adoption by a single woman is OK. But for a single woman also approved by a rav, sperm donation is not. This makes no sense, and is disrespectful to the posek who okayed it, and the Torah that he represents.

With regard to the second, there are all kinds of assumptions.

The phenomenon of the two parent individual home separated from the rest of the family is fairly recent. In past generations, single parent homes created by high mortality rates, or homes where several generations were under on roof, were more common. Yiddishkeit survived and thrived.

There is the assumption that Hashem only is at work for those in marriages. Somehow, those who were unable to find a zivug, and so, find a halachically acceptable way to have and raise a child, are being accused of doing it wrong.

But why wouldn't Hashem be in charge of their situation, too? Would the naysayers want to deny Hashem's hand in this regard?

My 2 cents. Anyone choosing the path of raising a child as a single parent, however they go about it (assuming they are doing so in accordance with the psak they have been given) deserves respect, friendship, and empathy.

Every neshama is precious, and middos matter. Maybe one of these children will become the next gadol hador. You never know.

amother

Tue, Apr 01 2014, 9:21 pm

I'm amother who wrote about jealousy. I based this on the fact that two of my single friends told me straight out that it is very hard for them that they have never been with a man, compared to all of their friends, relatives, and acquaintances, who have been. A single mother who was divorced or widowed is not sitting around wondering what it's like to be with a man, as (these two) singles are. So when their children are getting married, that problem doesn't exist. I didn't mean that they wouldn't be happy for their kids to have a happy life and children of their own. I do not want to appear judgmental of older singles, especially since they have it so hard without the judgement. However, being that they do confide a lot to me, I just can see many problems arising from a situation like this. Of course different people with different personalities, may not have the same issues. I am just basing this on the many singles that I personally know.