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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
amother
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 Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:28 pm
JoyintheMorning
When I did IVF we did have relations with a special (non-spermacide) condom with a hole so that there would be a technical chance of conception the old fashioned way and less issues with zera lvatala. Our issue is not male factor, it's unexplained.
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DrMom
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Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:29 pm
| groisamomma wrote: | Okay, so funny.  You never get a feeling you can't explain? I guess I'm not as articulate as other people. Maybe I let my emotions run me rather than my brain? Could be. Does that make me un-intelligent? (Not saying I'm smart or anything, just wondering.)
Edited to add that I did not report your post. I really thought you were being sarcastic and did not mean to be mean. Maybe I didn't get the insult because I'm dense or...not very intelligent? |
I can't explain why I posted. I just did. You ever write a post you can't explain?
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groisamomma
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Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:31 pm
| DrMom wrote: | | I can't explain why I posted. I just did. You ever write a post you can't explain? |
Not usually, no. None that I can think of. But I do sometimes have feelings I can't explain. Such as the doubt that the child of a sperm donor will become a gadol.
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DrMom
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Sun, Apr 06 2014, 10:45 pm
You don't need to post every indefensible, prejudicial thought that pops into your head. Perhaps what you write could be hurtful to others.
What if someone posted on the "Baby Names" board, "I am thinking about naming my child 'Mordechai.' Do you like that name?" and someone chimes in with, "I don't think someone named Mordechai will ever be the gadol hador." and refuses to explain why. How is that helpful? How is that not rude not just to the OP, but also to other women who have a children named Mordechai and who have high hopes for their children's Torah learning?
It's just plain obnoxious.
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JoyInTheMorning
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Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:28 pm
| amother wrote: | JoyintheMorning
When I did IVF we did have relations with a special (non-spermacide) condom with a hole so that there would be a technical chance of conception the old fashioned way and less issues with zera lvatala. Our issue is not male factor, it's unexplained. |
Yes, I understand that one can have sex while having IVF, but sometimes it doesn't work out that way. Sometimes the whole cycle is so quick due to the meds that you're ovulating on day 10, before you can get to the mikveh.
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Mama Bear
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Sun, Apr 06 2014, 11:36 pm
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What a pity I didnt keep in touch with that single frum woman who was trying ot have a biological sibling for her already donor-sperm-born son. I'm curious if her children grew up to be gedolei yisroel.... all I know is her location and how many years ago this happened. Hmmmm... (she was tsnius and was saying tehillim, she had a pidyon haben for her firstborn.... totally frum....)
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amother
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 12:00 am
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I cannot recall the details (nor find them via google) but I seem to have a vague idea that one of the nevi'im went bathing in a pool, and his daughter went there afterwards and conceived. Perhaps someone here knows the details?
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groisamomma
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 12:09 am
| DrMom wrote: | You don't need to post every indefensible, prejudicial thought that pops into your head. Perhaps what you write could be hurtful to others.
What if someone posted on the "Baby Names" board, "I am thinking about naming my child 'Mordechai.' Do you like that name?" and someone chimes in with, "I don't think someone named Mordechai will ever be the gadol hador." and refuses to explain why. How is that helpful? How is that not rude not just to the OP, but also to other women who have a children named Mordechai and who have high hopes for their children's Torah learning?
It's just plain obnoxious. |
I beg to differ. Why is your (or anyone else's for that matter) opinion or thoughts any more welcome on this board than mine? When you open a thread, it comes with the understanding that not everyone will perfectly agree and write exactly what the OP wants. Sometimes those thoughts may be hurtful, but if the OP didn't want her donor-sperm-receiving friend to get hurt she shouldn't have started the thread.
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DrMom
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 1:01 am
| groisamomma wrote: | | I beg to differ. Why is your (or anyone else's for that matter) opinion or thoughts any more welcome on this board than mine? When you open a thread, it comes with the understanding that not everyone will perfectly agree and write exactly what the OP wants. Sometimes those thoughts may be hurtful, but if the OP didn't want her donor-sperm-receiving friend to get hurt she shouldn't have started the thread. |
Anyone can post her opinions (well, except on banned subjects...). But one should be prepared to back them up with rational thoughts. If you post something ridiculous and hurtful and can't defend your opinion, don't be surprised if people criticize, and don't complain you are being "bashed."
Also, there are consequences to what you say. A child will sometimes walk down the street and blurt out, "Gee, I think that lady is UGLY." Is it a legitimate opinion? Yes! What's the problem? Well, it's hurtful and not constructive to say such things. Small children don't always understand that. Adults do. It's called "having good middot," or among non-Jews: "not being a jerk."
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 2:20 am
| groisamomma wrote: | | I may have a very narrow view, you could be right. R' Nosson Tzvi Finkel and the many, many gedolim that came from humble beginnings...I highly doubt they were conceived via donor sperm. | Groisamomma, but you have no way of knowing who in this world came from donor sperm. I am not trying to say bad things about Rav Finkel, but lets just say that his mother coupld not conceive and they, his parents, used donor sperm. How or why would you ever find out? You wouldnt.
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shabbatiscoming
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 2:23 am
| groisamomma wrote: | R' Nosson Tzvi Finkel started out in the MO community? I had no idea. Any gadol of humble beginnings, whatever you take that to mean Chareidi, MO, Litvish, Pepsi-cola yarmulke, Yeshivish, Yekke, Sephardi--where they were born to simple people and reached great heights.
But I think you knew that already. | Here, you ca read about his childhood: http://www.ou.org/jewish_actio.....l-zl/ and see where he started in life.
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Volunteer
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 2:45 am
| amother wrote: | | I cannot recall the details (nor find them via google) but I seem to have a vague idea that one of the nevi'im went bathing in a pool, and his daughter went there afterwards and conceived. Perhaps someone here knows the details? |
This legend was told in the gemara somewhere (don't remember where & too lazy to look it up, sorry). The story goes that Yirmiyah told men not to bathe in hot tubs (or something like that) because using them could cause "sperm leakage." So some guys got mad and picked him up and threw him into one (maybe they owned the spa), and a small amount of his sperm got into the water. Then a while later his daughter got in without changing the water, and she got pregnant. Apparently, people figured out what happened and considered the child legitimate. Supposedly Ben Sira was a descendant of this child. Ben Sira (aka Ben Sirach) wrote a book of proverbs that the sages considered apocryphal, but considered generally wise. It is included in the Catholic Bible for some reason. Rav Ovadia has a teshuva about a case where a woman had a child using artificial insemination from a man who would have been a forbidden union to her, and he ruled that the child was okay because no actual sin occurred between the woman and the sperm donor. He cited this passage as evidence for his opinion.
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lifesagift
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 3:04 am
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Exceptions exist to every rule, but ideally I still think a woman should get married to a decent, simular-thinking guy, even without the "heart palpitations". Theres something to be said re: the "experience of being married, which should be a prerequisite to having a kid. Im not judging your friend, but this is my opinion.
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ora_43
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:14 am
| MommyZ wrote: | | Getting married doesn't guarantee that your child will be raised by two parents. |
No, but it gives you much higher odds.
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Raisin
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:22 am
| groisamomma wrote: | | Are there gedolim in our history whose mothers were single and used donor sperm to conceive them? |
shlomo hamelech was born through far more morally questionable circumstances.
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Tablepoetry
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 5:29 am
After skimming the last few pages, a few random thoughts:
1) It is extremely hard to adopt a baby in most western countries. There are waiting periods of years and years for MARRIED couples. The chance of a single person being able to adopt are almost nil. This is also true for many non-western countries, which have lately become a lot stricter in their guidelines (and those countries carry many risks in their adoptions).
2) Marriage is tough enough as is. I would never advocate marrying someone just because he is a half way decent, ignoring differences in hashkafa, culture, education. Yes, one can gloss over that when you don't have children yet. One can try, as Dolly said, to live with a 'hashkafa' that's not innate to you.
BUT, once you have kids, you (general you) are going to want to raise those kids in the way you see most fit. You might find yourself having viscious fights with the man you married - the nice decent guy - because you and he believe in diametrically opposed life views. For example, you could ignore his 'Archie Bunker' old fashionedness when you were desperate for a kid; but now, you refuse to raise your child with even a hint of racism in the air. Or you didn't mind having a TV at home when it was just the two of you; now, you refuse to 'pollute' your child.....could be anything.
People can live with all kinds of differences -- TILL there are kids. Part of the desire of wanting to raise kids is the yearning to leave an imprint of your beliefs on the world. Nobody wants to raise a kid with values s/he is opposed to.
3) Somewhere a couple of pages back, Dolly said something to the effect that shopping therapy is lovely (ok, I agree) and that it can remedy the ideological differences between husband and wife. Strongly disagree. Shopping is a bandaid. Such a marriage will soon be in deep trouble.
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Isramom8
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 6:22 am
A biography about a gadol who was conceived with donor sperm would certainly stand out. They'd have to write a whole original first chapter, instead of copying, pasting and editing the standard yichus paragraphs.  
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ora_43
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 6:26 am
| DrMom wrote: | If a woman's goal is simply to get married, then I think it's okay to suggest "men who are fat or bald or poor" (I'm sure there are lots of fat/bald/poor men who make fine husbands, BTW).
If a woman's goal is to have a child, then it's an insult not only to her, but also to MEN to suggest that she marry some guy (whether he is "fat or bald or poor" or "thin or hairy or rich") just to accomplish this. Because that's bascially saying, "use this man as a sperm donor." At least if you go to a sperm bank, you are upfront about your true goals. |
I think the exact opposite is true.
If all a woman wants is marriage - not kids - then it makes sense to hold out for exactly the marriage she wants.
If a woman wants kids, OTOH, it makes sense that there would often need to be compromise. If a woman is in a situation where she hasn't found a man who 1. is the "type" she wanted as a husband 2. would make a decent father 3. is available and interested at the right time - something needs to give.
Sperm donation is giving up completely on #2. Deciding to date a wider variety of people (such as Dolly's suggestions of irreligious Jews, less physically attractive people, etc) is giving up partially - not completely - on #1 (Dolly's one comment about a divorcing couple having kids aside, nobody is suggesting women marry literally anybody).
I think you're way oversimplifying things in suggesting that compromise on dating is essentially equal to sperm donation. For one thing, because "the type of spouse I wanted from the beginning" and "person I could never, ever love" are not the only two options.
For another, because the point of marrying would be to give the kids a father, not just to get sperm. And I don't think it's so far-out to think that for a woman who's looking to have kids, and to give them the best possible start in life, the fact that a man is currently interested and would be a decent father would make him a genuinely more attractive candidate.
And presumably if a woman makes the decision that giving her children a father is #1 on her dating priority list, she's going to make a real commitment to the marriage.
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happybeingamom
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 7:06 am
Thank you for sharing the link, I was inspired.
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Rubber Ducky
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Mon, Apr 07 2014, 8:24 am
Inspiring article, thank you!
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