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Forum
-> Interesting Discussions
Can Orthodox Men and Women Be Just Friends?
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| Yes |
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17% |
[ 38 ] |
| No |
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54% |
[ 117 ] |
| Maybe - It depends on the situation and the people involved |
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28% |
[ 61 ] |
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| Total Votes : 216 |
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persephonefalls
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 Tue, Jun 04 2013, 11:27 pm
I think men and women can be platonic friends--but it's much harder if you're single. When I was single, every time I was friendly with a guy I was evaluating them as relationship/marriage material, and I know for a fact that at least some of them were thinking the same about me. That elevates every conversation into potential flirting, and makes the friendship fraught with s-xual tension whether you intend it or not.
Now that I'm happily married and have been for many years, I find it a lot easier to be friends with guys. I'm no longer evaluating them as potential life partners, so we can just be friends.
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amother
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Wed, Jun 05 2013, 10:58 pm
| wispalover wrote: | Do you think men and women can be friends?
One of my best friends in the world is a guy. I would say he knows everything about me and I probably know everything about him. I do not discuss my husband with him because they are friends too and I would not embarrass my DH by discussing him with a friend of his. I have know him since I was 15 and we have been through it all together- IF on both sides, marriage, (now he is getting divorced), |
I'm just curious.... (and I dont mean this in an insensitive way - just a possible observation based on this threads inquiry)... Do you think his marriage issues that are leading to his divorce could be related in anyway at all to the lack of satisfaction he gets from his wife or gives his wife in comparison to the satisfaction in your relationship with him? Even if he tells you everything in the world there is no way he would be able to share that with you and in fact chances are he may not even realize that it is the case. Obviously I dont know the situation for beans. His wife could be a terror or things could have just not gone smoothly or his wife may not want to stay with him... who knows. I am just curious if the seeds of his close relationship with a woman who is not his wife could have rooted things wrong from the start.
I say this from a personal point of view. BH I have a decent marriage with a loving husband. (we have our rocky days and nights and there are definitely some issues but I hope to stay happily married to my husband for ever after.)
However I have an acquaintance that is probably about ten or more years my senior (though way ahead of me in life stage with older children) that I often have to work hours with on projects and is an extremely sensible kind straight thinking and wonderful individual. I've seen him as a husband and father and Ive seen him in his dealings with helping people out. I have had to work many hours with him and turn to him for advice for many situations and he has been almost like a "shoulder to lean on" (sorry had to use that terminology although I dont mean it in an inappropriate sense) in many tough situations that we had to deal with. In some ways he is exactly what my husband is missing out in and it has been a relief to have him there to work with in situations whereas my husband is totally uninterested and in his own little world more often than not and not particular always sensible and worried about what everyone thinks about him etc... this guy is just a who cares what anybody thinks, im going to do whats right - kind of guy.
I must tell you - that at times it has made my marriage rough. Not because there was anything not nice or not-platonic going on but because the emotional gain I was getting from this guy was accentuating the void I was getting from my husband and often made me notice deficiencies in my husband that I tried to ignore or put aside. It made me lose a lot of respect for my husband and at times I feel like why cant he just be more like Mr. X.
This is why I ask you - maybe your best friend relationship is more deeply rooted than you realize? It may not be s*xual but it may affect his marital life. And although I dont believe I give my Mr. X the same satisfaction he gives me but truthfully I never would know because its not something that would ever surface in coversation as it would destroy our entire work situation.
Just my thoughts.
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amother
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Thu, Jun 06 2013, 2:38 am
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I just thought it would be interesting to note that in hilchos yichud, the law is much more stringent in cases of "libo gas bah" - the man is close with the woman. Such as a brother-in-law, childhood friend etc.
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amother
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 1:05 pm
| amother wrote: | | wispalover wrote: | Do you think men and women can be friends?
One of my best friends in the world is a guy. I would say he knows everything about me and I probably know everything about him. I do not discuss my husband with him because they are friends too and I would not embarrass my DH by discussing him with a friend of his. I have know him since I was 15 and we have been through it all together- IF on both sides, marriage, (now he is getting divorced), |
I'm just curious.... (and I dont mean this in an insensitive way - just a possible observation based on this threads inquiry)... Do you think his marriage issues that are leading to his divorce could be related in anyway at all to the lack of satisfaction he gets from his wife or gives his wife in comparison to the satisfaction in your relationship with him? Even if he tells you everything in the world there is no way he would be able to share that with you and in fact chances are he may not even realize that it is the case. Obviously I dont know the situation for beans. His wife could be a terror or things could have just not gone smoothly or his wife may not want to stay with him... who knows. I am just curious if the seeds of his close relationship with a woman who is not his wife could have rooted things wrong from the start.
I say this from a personal point of view. BH I have a decent marriage with a loving husband. (we have our rocky days and nights and there are definitely some issues but I hope to stay happily married to my husband for ever after.)
However I have an acquaintance that is probably about ten or more years my senior (though way ahead of me in life stage with older children) that I often have to work hours with on projects and is an extremely sensible kind straight thinking and wonderful individual. I've seen him as a husband and father and Ive seen him in his dealings with helping people out. I have had to work many hours with him and turn to him for advice for many situations and he has been almost like a "shoulder to lean on" (sorry had to use that terminology although I dont mean it in an inappropriate sense) in many tough situations that we had to deal with. In some ways he is exactly what my husband is missing out in and it has been a relief to have him there to work with in situations whereas my husband is totally uninterested and in his own little world more often than not and not particular always sensible and worried about what everyone thinks about him etc... this guy is just a who cares what anybody thinks, im going to do whats right - kind of guy.
I must tell you - that at times it has made my marriage rough. Not because there was anything not nice or not-platonic going on but because the emotional gain I was getting from this guy was accentuating the void I was getting from my husband and often made me notice deficiencies in my husband that I tried to ignore or put aside. It made me lose a lot of respect for my husband and at times I feel like why cant he just be more like Mr. X.
This is why I ask you - maybe your best friend relationship is more deeply rooted than you realize? It may not be s*xual but it may affect his marital life. And although I dont believe I give my Mr. X the same satisfaction he gives me but truthfully I never would know because its not something that would ever surface in coversation as it would destroy our entire work situation.
Just my thoughts. | That's why I asked for his take on it. I did NOT mean to be rude. I'm sorry. I just meant that to you, wispalover, he may be only an older brother, but it's very likely that it's not the same case on HIS side, even if he says so. Besides, you did mention he is getting divorced. Why? Maybe it's related?
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amother
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 3:23 pm
| amother wrote: | | wispalover wrote: | Do you think men and women can be friends?
One of my best friends in the world is a guy. I would say he knows everything about me and I probably know everything about him. I do not discuss my husband with him because they are friends too and I would not embarrass my DH by discussing him with a friend of his. I have know him since I was 15 and we have been through it all together- IF on both sides, marriage, (now he is getting divorced), |
I'm just curious.... (and I dont mean this in an insensitive way - just a possible observation based on this threads inquiry)... Do you think his marriage issues that are leading to his divorce could be related in anyway at all to the lack of satisfaction he gets from his wife or gives his wife in comparison to the satisfaction in your relationship with him? Even if he tells you everything in the world there is no way he would be able to share that with you and in fact chances are he may not even realize that it is the case. Obviously I dont know the situation for beans. His wife could be a terror or things could have just not gone smoothly or his wife may not want to stay with him... who knows. I am just curious if the seeds of his close relationship with a woman who is not his wife could have rooted things wrong from the start.
I say this from a personal point of view. BH I have a decent marriage with a loving husband. (we have our rocky days and nights and there are definitely some issues but I hope to stay happily married to my husband for ever after.)
However I have an acquaintance that is probably about ten or more years my senior (though way ahead of me in life stage with older children) that I often have to work hours with on projects and is an extremely sensible kind straight thinking and wonderful individual. I've seen him as a husband and father and Ive seen him in his dealings with helping people out. I have had to work many hours with him and turn to him for advice for many situations and he has been almost like a "shoulder to lean on" (sorry had to use that terminology although I dont mean it in an inappropriate sense) in many tough situations that we had to deal with. In some ways he is exactly what my husband is missing out in and it has been a relief to have him there to work with in situations whereas my husband is totally uninterested and in his own little world more often than not and not particular always sensible and worried about what everyone thinks about him etc... this guy is just a who cares what anybody thinks, im going to do whats right - kind of guy.
I must tell you - that at times it has made my marriage rough. Not because there was anything not nice or not-platonic going on but because the emotional gain I was getting from this guy was accentuating the void I was getting from my husband and often made me notice deficiencies in my husband that I tried to ignore or put aside. It made me lose a lot of respect for my husband and at times I feel like why cant he just be more like Mr. X.
This is why I ask you - maybe your best friend relationship is more deeply rooted than you realize? It may not be s*xual but it may affect his marital life. And although I dont believe I give my Mr. X the same satisfaction he gives me but truthfully I never would know because its not something that would ever surface in coversation as it would destroy our entire work situation.
Just my thoughts. |
Amother...I can definitely relate to you...I'm almost in the same boat as you...lots of similarities here... sometimes it gets hard  exactly how you said it..filling that "emotional" void that I get from my husband... but I just try to focus on my husband's positive attributes and it helps me continue on (not easy though)
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amother
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 4:02 pm
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I grew up lite yeshivish- went graduate school and working in a mixed environment, Im pretty but always tznius but often feel like the guys are talking to me as a "girl" not a person. When I've mentioned it to freinds they laugh at me and tell me its just cuz of how I grew up and Im reading into it- I've been right in every case, after a few weeks they'll start complimenting me or making inappropriate comments. Even my husband has told me you're probably overreacting until my supervisor at work started asking me to rub his neck (frum guy married with kids). in hindsight my husband laughs that he was obviously naive- just didnt think a frum guy would be hitting on me(esp cuz I was pregnant at the time.) Idk maybe Im sensitive or maybe I always act too feminine. There are guys that I talk to at work that I feel nothing towards but I always feel like they are looking at me.
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healthywoman
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:20 pm
if they are g8y  otherwise, nope. just nature!
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amother
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:41 pm
Absolutely. Not every man is attracted to every woman.
Though, I'm not sure why 'friends' has to mean that neither party ever thought oh hey that person looks hot right now. People can have self control. There should still be basic boundaries though of course especially once people get married.
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Clarissa
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Fri, Jun 07 2013, 5:42 pm
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The question is kind of silly here, if it's posted for everyone. We know that a large percentage of the women here have been pretty much separated from men most of their lives. It's not like they'd suddenly find themselves going out for drinks or a walk in the park with a male friend, or even having a male friend. So of course those people would say that it's a no-no. It's a more reasonable question to ask the more modern people on the board, who are used to mixing with men at school, work, social functions, etc.
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wispalover
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Sat, Jun 08 2013, 2:43 pm
| amother wrote: | | That's why I asked for his take on it. I did NOT mean to be rude. I'm sorry. I just meant that to you, wispalover, he may be only an older brother, but it's very likely that it's not the same case on HIS side, even if he says so. Besides, you did mention he is getting divorced. Why? Maybe it's related? |
To assuage everyones curiousity on his divorce: IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ME AT ALL! His wife is clinically insane and is currently being evaluated for a host of severe psychiatric disorders. I assure you these issues had everything to do with the divorce, not me.
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Isramom8
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Sat, Jun 08 2013, 5:36 pm
| amother wrote: | | I just thought it would be interesting to note that in hilchos yichud, the law is much more stringent in cases of "libo gas bah" - the man is close with the woman. Such as a brother-in-law, childhood friend etc. |
Can you specify these stringencies?
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Aetrsnrady
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Sat, Jun 08 2013, 11:51 pm
| amother wrote: | I'm BT and every boyfriend I had started out as a good friend.
So NOPE I don't think men and women should be friends, I think it's pretty naive! Sure be pleasant and friendly, but don't overstep those boundaries. You never know who's feeling lonely in their marriage. |
This!
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amother
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 3:46 am
In my ideal mind I would love to say yes. But from my experiences I would have to say no. In real life I have seen anyone who got too close to the other gender always ended having it bite them back and ruined marriages as a result.
Also in all books that I have read that becomes the case eventually. Even a simple example which I am sure most of you have read. Harry Potter what happens to all the main characters? They were just friends right? I also thought they were well...
I think always one side has feelings and the only reasons why it doesn't get acted on at times is because the other side does see ti just as a friendship. and the only way how you could do a study is by hearing both sides. it may seem that you think it's your cookies but to them it's not.
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DrMom
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 5:54 am
For those of you who claim that there is always some attaction that will make it difficult to keep the friendship platonic:
I know many men toward whom I have absolutely no attraction whatsoever. Don't you? And I'm sure there are plenty of men who are not attracted toward me in the slightest.
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ora_43
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 8:14 am
| DrMom wrote: | | I know many men toward whom I have absolutely no attraction whatsoever. Don't you? And I'm sure there are plenty of men who are not attracted toward me in the slightest. |
The question would be not only if there are men you have zero attraction to who have zero attraction to you, but if there are men you have zero attraction to despite having a deep and long-lasting emotional connection and enjoying each others' company, etc.
If you can think of men you aren't attracted to but don't like them as people, either, it doesn't disprove the point.
That said I agree it's silly to say that every single male-female friendship always has some level of attraction. If nothing else, what about gay or asexual people?
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PinkFridge
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 9:21 am
| Clarissa wrote: | | The question is kind of silly here, if it's posted for everyone. We know that a large percentage of the women here have been pretty much separated from men most of their lives. It's not like they'd suddenly find themselves going out for drinks or a walk in the park with a male friend, or even having a male friend. So of course those people would say that it's a no-no. It's a more reasonable question to ask the more modern people on the board, who are used to mixing with men at school, work, social functions, etc. |
I might leave work out of your last sentence, as not all non-MO women here work in businesses without men, but yeah, there is an ingrained sense of a need for boundaries (down to not calling people of the opposite gender by their first names) and there are some pretty good reasons for it.
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June
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 11:41 am
| Isramom8 wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I just thought it would be interesting to note that in hilchos yichud, the law is much more stringent in cases of "libo gas bah" - the man is close with the woman. Such as a brother-in-law, childhood friend etc. |
Can you specify these stringencies? |
I'm not this amother but I happen to be learning these halachos now...
An example of such a stringency is that the heter of Baalah b'ir - that a woman may be alone with a man if her husband is in the city - does not work in the case of libo gas bah.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 2:58 pm
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I have a male friend - the thing is I am bt, so I went to a co-ed school, and the ironic thing is the fact that I am religious now means that we can actually JUST be friends - but I would NEVER go out with a man as a married woman, even just as a friend. That is wrong . We just message each other from time to time to say what's going on.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 4:28 pm
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If I'm friends with a guy I don't want him to be attracted to me because I don't want the aveirah on me. But if he is not attracted I get insulted. I know I'm weird. Anyway because of that I try to avoid talking to guys for no specific required reason.
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amother
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Sun, Jun 09 2013, 4:30 pm
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I mean I try no to talk to guys unless I have a specific required reason and I try to make it short but polite and to the point.
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