Can Men and Women Be Platonic Friends?

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 7:22 am

yes in theory.
in practise not so easy.
I have a friend who I've known forever and a day and we are still friends.
was it always platonic ? no
but the not-platonic part was a short aberration in a lifetime of friendship.
he is like the brother I never had but with incestuous over/undertones.
as we now live in different countries we just skype from time to time.
as we know each other so well we can use each other as a sounding board.
I've always had male friends, but you have to be careful with your boundaries and set them really well or one or other of you can step over the line.
I think it's easier to be platonic friends in the workplace as most companies have very strict guidelines for this as they don't want to get slammed with s-xual harassment suites.

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:23 am

I grew up yeshivish and still consider myself that way. Even though I went to Bais Yaakov, I unfortunately was not such a good girl and did stuff with guys. I will say that as a TEEN, it is hard to have a platonic relationship due to hormones, lack of seeing consequences, the need for freedom and fun, and many other things. many of my friends that started out just "talking" to guys went further without ever wanting to. they just got too close and deep down I think kind of did want it - these were girls who knew their limits, very frum families, etc. Now I am married to a BT. He does not think men and women should have any contact. He was in public school and always co-ed. He said guys were always talking about and thinking about other girls. Maybe they wouldn't do anything but they sure were thinking it. He felt all the underlying attraction in normal conversations and saw that many guys were very into girls. Even after he wasn't a teen, as a married man he said that men still check out and talk about women. They all notice that X's wife is so hot, etc. I know for myself that as a married woman, I am extremely unlikely to get into any physical relationship with another man because I love my husband and feel obligated to him. As a single girl, there was nothing holding me back or tying me down. I would never, ever want to hurt my husband. Even if I ch"v did not love my husband, I believe that I wouldn't get physical out of fear of being discovered. The embarrassment of an affair where everyone at work knows, your kids know, your family and friends are all talking about you is much worse than a teenager who will eventually straighten out and people look the other way.
My husband is very particular about this area. I dress very, very tzniusly and am extremely separated from men. I work in a girl's school so only women - no men. He does not want me to ever work in an office with men or a boy's school with rabbanim. Everything we do is separate - we never have couple over, no socializing parties or anything. It gets lonely since we don't take part in these things but that is how we do it.

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 9:38 am

naomi2 wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_lh5fR4DMA
I saw this a while ago. so interesting and ironic- it's real too!!

This says it all! We are a board of women, so we'd like to think the answer is yes.
Talk to the men about their feelings. They can have self-control, they could block out those feelings, but bottom line: It's something they really can't help feeling. Emotions aren't ruled by logic. We can choose not to act upon those emotions, but I believe, and this clip shows, that the emotions are always there.

ora_43

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 10:13 am

I think it depends how you define "friends."

Casual friends, where you talk about how work is going and how studies are going and how the kids are doing and the books you've read recently, etc - sure.

Even that much could be an issue if either of you finds the other wildly attractive, or if either of you is from a society where that kind of interaction isn't the norm. But in general it works out OK, IMHO.

Friends-friends, where you talk about the above but also about emotional stuff, eg. how you feel about a sibling's divorce, or a parent's death, or anything related to marriage, or where you regularly spend one-on-one time together - not so much.

I wouldn't say it's impossible. I'm sure there are straight men and women out there who've had long-term friendships where they discussed the deepest emotional issues and neither was ever attracted to the other or overly invested in the relationship to the point where it interfered with their marriage. There are also people who've driven drunk regularly for the past 20 years and haven't crashed their car yet.

It's possible. I just don't think it's advisable. Some people are able to make it work - but you have no way of knowing ahead of time if you'll be one of that group, or in the I-can't-stop-thinking-about-my-friend (/"I didn't mean to have an affair, it just kind of happened") group. Whereas if you draw lines, you can be more sure. It's hard to fall in love with someone without deep conversations or one-on-one time.

(Which brings up another question - does "platonic" mean "never had any kind of romantic/s-xual contact," or "neither has romantic feelings for the other"?)

Regarding singles - I think male-female friendships between singles are more likely to lead to one person or both wanting more than are friendships between married people. But since they're single, that's often not a bad thing.

wispalover

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 11:35 am

Do you think men and women can be friends?
One of my best friends in the world is a guy. I would say he knows everything about me and I probably know everything about him. I do not discuss my husband with him because they are friends too and I would not embarrass my DH by discussing him with a friend of his. I have know him since I was 15 and we have been through it all together- IF on both sides, marriage, (now he is getting divorced), sibling issues, grandparents deaths, business partnerships, we daven for each other.. EVERYTHING. Never remote attraction on either side, just really enjoy each others company, thoughts and debates on things. I consider him as my brother and he thinks of me as his little sister.

Do you think men and women have different opinions on this subject?
Only men who have not been brought up around women and can see women as friends and not just members of the opposite relations.

Do you think those raised in a segregated society would have a harder time being platonic friends?
Yes, for issues as listed above.

Would someone who grew up in a co-ed environment have an easier time being platonic friends?
Most definitely.

Can men and women have platonic friendships in the workplace, school, or professional settings?
Yes. I would say I was friends with my boss who was a Rabbi for a professional youth organisation. We joked around, I was close friends with his wife and we were a team.

Can men and women be platonic friends as two couples (hanging out as couples)?
Yes, of course.MyDH loves my BFF and her DH and I love my BFF and her DH too!

Would a married person have an easier time being platonic friends?
No, why would they?

Would people pick better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends beforehand?
Yes, I think so.

What orthodox group do you identify with? (modern orthodox, hasidic, sephardic, etc.)
FFB LWMO

amother

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 11:58 am

wispalover wrote:

Without any insinuation or offense, I'd love to hear his take on this.

naturalmom5

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 12:00 pm

amother wrote:

There is a medrash on Mishli..
Once a yeed was very addicted to wine.So his children put him in a cave in a cemetery .Meanwhile, there was a war and everything in the city was being confiscated by the army.
A merchant with several barrels of wine ,traveling through found out about this .
So, he hid his wine in the cave while this yeed was sleeping unbeknownst to him.
When the yeed's children came to see their father they found him drunk in the barrel .
They realized that Hashem provides whatever a person wants good or bad.
If you make a bizarre histadlus , unlike the rest of your community you are setting yourself up for Tzurus .

wispalover

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 12:39 pm

amother wrote:

wispalover wrote:

Without any insinuation or offense, I'd love to hear his take on this.

Why are you amother to ask me to ask someone else for their take on this? There are people on this very board who know me and him IRL and can vouch for me and him if they so choose. I will leave that to see if they see this thread and want to come forward.
FTR I am not his type lookswise, nor he mine. He will tell everyone I am like a younger sister and I am telling you I call him my wannabe-older-brother. I am not sure why it is so farfetched that not every man wants to jump into bed with every woman/girl he sees.

ETA: He knew me before I was married and he was very unhappy. He had ample chances to make a move as did I. We never did. We hug when we havent seen each other in a long time and feel zilch. Believe me nothing is going... upwards when we touch. Same with DH's married male friend. We all hug each other too. Nothing going on then either.

Clarissa

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 1:52 pm

amother wrote:

wispalover wrote:

Without any insinuation or offense, I'd love to hear his take on this.

Great. Another rude amother.

robynm

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 2:33 pm

Going to post under my screen name, even though it's probably a bad idea. Reasons: 1. no one takes amother seriously. 2. I am not the same person I used to be.

This is a very interesting discussion.

I have changed my mind about this topic quite a few times over the last 15 years. I used to think that there was such a thing as platonic relationships until I received a very blunt explanation from a guy about how guys think. I felt so disgusted by what I heard. I was so upset. I strongly felt (and still feel) that girls are not educated enough (or at all) about the opposite $ex. We were just TOLD that we were not allowed to talk to boys. Some listened, most did not. And a lot of us suffered the consequences.

My friends and I all married high school boyfriends. All the couples got together every Shabbos (for meals), sundays, etc.... We knew everything about each other's personal and private lives. To the extent that we went to the mikva together on occasion. I know this is digressing off the main question, but what I am trying to prove is that inter-mingeling (is that a word?) and being super comfortable with other couples and members of the other $ex is not good. Things can and do get inappropriate.

Once I was divorced (or actually separated) a lot of the husbands became much friendlier. They started sharing things with me that they didn't want their wives to know. I continuously told them that I was friends with their wives first.

Fast Forward a few years and there I was "friends" with guyz again. I was no longer in a structured married life or "frum" community. I found even the gay guys I met to push the boundaries and most men I met behaved inappropriately. I will admit that I behaved in a poor manner as well (alcohol was a main contributor.) I became "friends" with a married man. We had a very strong emotional realtionship, which I recently ended because I realized how harmful it was to his marriage and how even more harmful it was to myself. I am not proud of what I have done but I choose to look forward.

You may say that I am a more $exual person or that my specific circumstances caused me to behave in terrible ways with "friends" or any guy I met. And I would probably agree with you. But I would caution any young impressionable girl to keep her distance from casual friendships. They are dangerous.

Let the pouncing begin.

Last edited by robynm on Tue, Jun 04 2013, 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

mummy1985

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 2:50 pm

naturalmom5 wrote:

amother wrote:

that's well scary! shock

mummy1985

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 3:12 pm

amother wrote:

I am conducting an informal study to see how orthodox women feel about being just friends with guys. I am a BT, and while I do think it is possible to be just friends, I think there is always the potential for more brewing under the surface. That's just my opinion. If anyone cares to answer these questions, it would be interesting to see the responses.

Do you think men and women can be friends? - yes as in I am friends with my dh
Do you think men and women have different opinions on this subject? yes
Do you think those raised in a segregated society would have a harder time being platonic friends? yes
Would someone who grew up in a co-ed environment have an easier time being platonic friends? yes but it wouldn't be platonic
Can men and women have platonic friendships in the workplace, school, or professional settings? yes as in a work environment you need to have some level of a professional friendship with male co-workers but with limits
Can men and women be platonic friends as two couples (hanging out as couples)? no I am really not keen on this at all as it promotes comparing which can be disastrous for a marriage
Would a married person have an easier time being platonic friends? yes but it wouldn't be platonic
Would people pick better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends beforehand? not necessarily
What orthodox group do you identify with? (modern orthodox, hasidic, sephardic, etc.) sephardic

I will say this much I was a very attractive teenager and I never had a platonic friendship, all guys I was friends with would end up asking me out or making a 'move' and I did actually have a guy best friend for many years whom I felt I had a platonic friendship with, however in the end I developed feeling for him and discovered he became my friend initially in the hopes of something happening between us, in case you are wondering no it did not work out between us

wispalover

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 3:58 pm

amother wrote:

A few responses:
a) When girls and boys who have been told for years that all you do when you are with a member of the opposite gender is s-e-x how do you suppose they would act together?

b) Welcome to the wonderful world of high school, where all that matters is who you got with the night before.

c) As a frum, married man your DH and his friends are discussing who's wife is hot? That is simply disgusting. What happened to not lusting after your neighbors wife? No wonder your husband is particular in tznius.. after all, he knows what and how his friends are thinking.

wispalover

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 4:08 pm

amother wrote:

The question shouldn't be whether men and women CAN be friends, only whether they SHOULD! People CAN do whatever they want; it doesn't mean that it's right.
It is against Halacha to be friendly to a man. I understand that it can be hard to ignore friendly overtures from a man especially when you are involved in his life one way or another, such as family friends or Shabbos guests. But keep in mind that in the long run it is worth the s'char for being careful.

Thank you, Rabbi Amother, for this p'sak. I will surely give it all the consideration it deserves.

Clarissa

Tue, Jun 04 2013, 5:10 pm

amother wrote:

It is against the rules of the site to use amother unless you have a good reason. You do not have a good reason.