Can Men and Women Be Platonic Friends?

Tamiri

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 12:41 pm

amother wrote:

Tamiri wrote:

amother wrote:

It didn't work out for me. I was trying very hard to prove that men and women can have a platonic relationship. Still didn't work.

In my case, even though I was not attracted to this guy at all, I grew to love his personality, and consequently became attracted. We cut off right at the point before it got seriously physical.

Don't you need to want his body for it to be zexual????
I think it's probably easier for females who grew up around males. Who learned the boundaries early on. Not every boy wants to **** you and you don't want to **** every boy you meet. Particularly if you are religious and not into touching boys anyway. Maybe that's a plus: the negia thing. Keeps inyanim in perspective.

I'm the amother at the top of the page.
If you really, really like someone you sometimes start to overlook the things that might have bothered you at first glance, and can really get attracted on a soul level, which leads to physical attraction.

Well, with my "friend boy" I LOVED his thinking and his logic and his vast knowledge but his body repelled me. Then I met my DH (at about the same age BTW) and loved the whole package. Totally different feelings! Growing up in a Bnai Akiva environment in the 70s-early 80s, being together with the boys was totally natural and fun. We had our limits. In fact, I recently attended a reunion, the second in as many years. I wasn't at the first one so can't comment on how emotional it was for nearly 100 childhood FRIENDS to meet, some after ~30 years of more. But that second reunion... we had a Rabbi who is the head of a prominent religious school in Jlm, a CHAREIDI guy with 8 kids and 15 grandchildren (no one of us 50-51 year olds could beat that) who could not resist the charming memories and so on. It was ALL platonic besides, of course, for the two married couples from our group, each married for around 30 years now. I guess this is like describing earth life to Martians: you have to live it to know it!!!

mille

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 12:53 pm

For me, it's an absolutely silly question. I grew up secular, and all of my current friends grew up Orthodox, but none in a totally gender-segregating community. I have quite a few married and single Orthodox male friends. I hang out with them. Recently, I had one over in my apartment while my husband was out. Nothing remotely happened. It is laughable to think it even would!

That said, I don't think I'm really the demographic you are looking at for your "study". I live in a mixed community where it's very very common for men and women to be friends. I am sure that it is much harder for those who live in more segregated communities to have male friends -- isn't that the point of the community? I do not live in one of those types of communities, though, and have never felt weird about having male friends. I don't think it conflicts with my religious values, either...

freidasima

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 1:00 pm

That was me liking your post above Tamiri.
I also grew up totally co-ed except for high school, and I have a bunch of really close guy friends for ages and ages and ages. They are all secular because frum guys seem to have a bit of a problem with the concept here in EY if they are really frum and if they are not, well then, they aren't "orthodox" even if they wear a kippa. So go define orthodox.....

Did I ever have "feelings" for them? Not since getting married, that's for sure. There is no man in this universe who tops my DH , no one more handsome, smarter, kinder etc. Why in the world should I take second rate while I have first rate at home?

Did they ever have "feelings" for me? Sure they did but not the kind to jump into bed with me lol! Feelings that they adored and still adore me as a friend, for my brain, for my personality, for my kindness. They were there in the crises in my life and I was there in their crises. With only one did we become friends as a couple but that is because this was the only guy, and he is 70 today, whose wife never feared their relationship with me. She is really straight and yekke and could never imagine that her husband would even for a moment stray, even in his mind (and he doesn't, he's definitely a father figure for me in a sense).

Took a very very very long time until the other wives (they were all married when we met and much older than me, I was still single) got the picture and stopped being scared. They didn't realize that FRUM meant that it was not an option for me to even think in that direction. Only when one of my friends had a life threatening medical crisis and I used my powers to intervene and get help fast, did she realize that I was on "their side" and not just "his side" and when three years later there was a problem and she was abroad, she called me to drive to their house and force her husband into the hospital and I stayed there with him for 24 hours so he wouldn't be alone until her plane landed. That iced the cake and since then we are all buddies.

So I think the problem could more be the wives of these guys who might get scared rather than the guys and you...at least that was my experience.

Merrymom

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 1:25 pm

DrMom wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

sunny90 wrote:

I'm not going to answer all of the questions as I feel I'm not qualified to--I'm FFB and never had platonic guy friends, but I do have to say this:
My husband and I are part of a group of couples in which all of us women are very good friends and so are all the men. Most times when we all get together our conversations end up divided by gender, just based on the things we like to talk about Smile

. Of course when we're all sitting at the same table our conversations overlap sometimes, but I don't think any of us have ever crossed inappropriate lines. If I saw one of their husbands we could have a friendly conversation, and vice versa with my husband and one of my friends, but I don't think that affects our marriage. We LOVE that we can get together with a few other couples and both have a great time!

I used to socialize with a group of couples just like this, until my friend's dh decided to have an affair with her best friend. I'm not against couples getting together for meals and such, but couples dating is disgusting un Jewish behavior in my opinion, and asking for trouble.

Only if you behave in a disgusting manner. Otherwise, how is it different from having dinner guests at the Shabbat table? Is that also "disgusting"? (*bizarre*)

OK, yes, your behavior at these times matters alot. However, I've had laughing good times at the table with dh and families together, but it's not the same as going out to movies, restaurants, parks, whatever. In one situation you're sitting there in a family atmosphere and in the other it's something that should be reserved just for your dh. He should be completely focused on you at that time, not on how hilarious his friend is or how witty your friend is.

sunny90

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 4:25 pm

Merrymom wrote:

DrMom wrote:

Merrymom wrote:

sunny90 wrote:

Only if you behave in a disgusting manner. Otherwise, how is it different from having dinner guests at the Shabbat table? Is that also "disgusting"? (*bizarre*)

Just by the way, I meant that we generally got together for Shabbos meals or Chanukah parties etc. When our friends are in town, yes we will get together in a restaurant so that I can catch up with my friend and he can catch up with his. Generally when it's just two couples we end up with two separate conversations.

Lady Godiva

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 4:49 pm

Do you think men and women can be friends? Yes.

Do you think men and women have different opinions on this subject? It depends on how they grew up and/or their individual personalities. There are men of all different backgrounds who will eye **** every woman they see, and there are men who will respect women and see them as people--not just mating material, no matter what their religiosity level is. There are also women who think that every guy who looks their way wants to sleep with them, and women who can talk to guys as just friends.

Do you think those raised in a segregated society would have a harder time being platonic friends? In general, yes, but personality also comes into play.

Would someone who grew up in a co-ed environment have an easier time being platonic friends? Most likely yes, but, then again, there is always that pig in every group who look at all women as potential sleeping partners.

Can men and women have platonic friendships in the workplace, school, or professional settings? Yes. Most professional environments demand that.

Can men and women be platonic friends as two couples (hanging out as couples)? Yes! This question makes it seem like humans are animals with uncontrollable s--xu@l urges who will try to mate anything of the oppoiste gender!

Would a married person have an easier time being platonic friends? Not necessarily. A person in a good marriage would, though.

Would people pick better marriage partners if they knew how to be friends beforehand? I don't think one has anything to do with the other. There are happy marriages and problematic marriages in all circles.

What orthodox group do you identify with? (modern orthodox, hasidic, sephardic, etc.) Sephardic.

black sheep

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 7:58 pm

it really all depends on what you believe.
if you believe you cannot be platonic friends with a guy, then you can't. if you believe men and women CAN be platonic friends, then you can. if you start out believing you can, but then change your mind in a specific situation or with a specific friend, then you can't be platonic friends with that particular person.
I personally believe that men and women can be friends without feeling the need to become romantic or otherwise involved. however, sometimes feelings develop beyond our control, and I still believe that us humans have the ability to control our actions, words, and even thoughts. so when you are in a platonic friendship with a guy, and you start noticing that you are both feeling all warm and fuzzy towards each other, I believe you still have the ability to not do anything inappropriate. this might mean spending less time together, or taking a break from each other, whatever. nothing even needs to be said. but the point is, you CAN be platonic friends, until you aren't anymore, and then you can use the superpower called Self Control to remain a moral human being even while you socialize with the opposite gender.

on the flip side of that, I think teaching men and women that we cannot be platonic friends is giving the message that we have no self control, that we automatically want to sleep with anyone we find remotely attractive, and that we act on every base desire that pops into our animalistic heads. sorry, but I think a bit too highly of myself to accept that.

vintagebknyc

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 10:48 pm

some people can, some people can't.

growing up, most of my friends were guys. (the nerdy math guys.) one by one, after college, each met the woman they'd marry and each began to exclude me. once, I wasn't invited to a dinner party because "there weren't enough chairs." likely, all of this, because I was not attached at the time.

as an adult, when I was still single, the only male friends I've had were gay. the ones with wives made sure I was exceptionally unwelcome. it's a little better now that I'm with DH, who is very cool with my having male friends. but, honestly, I just stopped trying after one too brunch invites got turned down. it hurts.

it's been clear to me that the wives are jealous. that's obvious. I'm pretty/thin/wry/smart, but I've never received throngs of attention from men--it's not as though I look like angelina jolie.

a group of us from HS are friendly on FB, and one of the guys works near where we live. we keep making coffee dates, they never happen. his wife's fault. now, I need to be frank about this: this guy was SO cute when we were kids, and we were in the temple youth group together (conservative, obv). if I'd wanted him, I'd have had plenty of chances. now? middle aged and 50 pounds overweight? she can have him. I just wanted to have coffee with an old friend. I don't know why I'm so threatening.

Merrymom

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 11:17 pm

vintagebknyc wrote:

Do you seriously not understand why a wife wouldn't want you shmoozing with her dh? He should be shmoozing with his wife, not you, even if there isn't an iota of attraction. Even guys don't sit and shmooze with their guy friends, they talk politics, sports, and other boring things. Conversation between men and women is of a much more intimate quality.

chocolate chips

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 11:35 pm

I voted yes but it really depends.

I wouldn't call myself friends with any men really but when I see or speak to certain men we do have a nice conversation. Be it family members, in laws etc.

I think you have to know your limit and their limit. Like there are certain things I would say to my brother in law and that is fine but if I would say it to my husbands brother he would dis-own me, if you could use that term.
I am a very chatty, friendly person by nature so I am sure that does have a weight to my side on this. Sometimes I see myself chatty to a point it is almost flirty or the other side could take it as such and I back off.

It's about using control. There are certain men from my childhood who I would hug if I met again but totally not be interested in them in any s-xual sense at all! All people can be friends...although funnily enough whenever I see a group of girls with some guys on the subway or bus etc, the guys are always gay! Wink

amother

Mon, Jun 03 2013, 11:45 pm

I grew up in Yeshivish out of town home.

as a kid I would have told you its impossible.
I still remember when I was in 6th or 7th grade and my older brothers friend came over to play some game and we all were playing then my bro had to leave so I was finishing the game. Then some friends came to visit me and so I ended the game to go to my friends and my bro's friend left my house angry at me cuz he waited all week to see me....! That was my first bang into reality.

But as an older teen I had to get involved in situations where I needed to deal with men at times and was able to see that it can be possible. Even on a closer relationship (not inappropriate but ery involved in dealing with things together)

As a young single I had some shocks - like one man I worked with on a day to day basis for a month or so had seemed so "work minded" and our relationship was always accomplishing the set tasks. One day when nobody was around he told me I have beautiful eyes. I stood shocked and then just walked out of the room and told my boss I will not come back and work if that guy is anywhere around cuz I was scared stiff.

As a bit of an older single I had to deal with many men of different ages and really almost had a "friendship" with some of them as we shared common situations and had to touch base often. I rarely had any situation where I was aware at least of any underlying thoughts going on. I often was even involved with setting some of these guys up on dates and I spoke to them quite a few times regarding their dating parsha. Never did they get inappropriate. I had some guys that I knew from before they were married that were involved and setting me up on dates (the real yeshivish ones had their wivees talk to me as a via point of communication but many spoke straight to me. Actually my shidduch happened via a friends husband that I used to hang out with both of them and he got to know me. I don think he had any underlying thoughts but you never know.)

And then when I got married - I work mainly with men and my dh laughs abt that I have lots of guyfriends but he is ok with the situation and knows that if I feel anything inappropriate going on I tell him right away and ask him for advice. Like the other day I was assigned a new guy to work with that was so overly friendly and I just couldnt take it cuz he talked to me like I was his best friend or wife and I finally told the guy straight that I feel he is being inappropriate and I cant work with him unless he changes the way he talks to me from then on. And he did.

In my work situation - I am very involved with the ppl I work with and some of them really are like friends. They all tell me I need to be at their fam simchas (which can get awkward cuz Im there for the man and barely know the women in the fam if even!) I often tell them I want to meet their wives so that their wives can be comfortable with the situation. But the truth is - some of them really are friends and really help me out when I need and when I need to take care of things they are there to help. Many of them are older than me by much and many are in the same age range but its kind of weird because I feel like in most cases it could be a bad situation but it just isnt. Then again - they dont tell me if it is.... so I cant tell you what they really think. I wouldnt be surprised if one or two of them are silently attracted but I really try hard not to be too close to anyone that I feel may be a problem.

I've seen very often though - the platonic relationship thing not being platonic and can get messy too.
My advice - dont make friends with guys if you dont have too.
If you have too - then dont do things that will attaract the maleness in them (I.e. flicking hair, body language etc)
And be ready to pick up on anything that may be a sign of attractiveness and then be smart about.
Many marriages are ruined from carelessness... gotta be careful cuz a guy is a guy. Not an animal but a guy with the physical natural attractedness to a woman in general.