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Forum
-> Relationships
-> Manners & Etiquette
1Life2Live
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 Wed, Nov 02 2011, 9:17 am
| amother wrote: | | I know some of you here will bash me for it and say no matter what you do not shake hands with men - but you have probably never been in a real corporate meeting with business executives so you cannot fully grasp the situation. |
I agree with amother. Shaking hands does not compromise your religion, but makes you sound immature. {no offence, I don't know you IRL}
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freidasima
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 9:19 am
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What in the first place makes you think that it is ossur to shake a man's hand in social situations? Can you show me where that issur is written? That specific issur?
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SomebodyElse
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 9:56 am
| yaeli83 wrote: | Im not sure if this makes it any better, but when my husband comes across this, instead of saying, "Im sorry, I don't shake womens hands", he says "Im sorry, for regligious reasons I only shake hands with men"
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I think this does make it better -- it expresses it as a positive, rather than a negative.
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Chayalle
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 10:02 am
| 1Life2Live wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I know some of you here will bash me for it and say no matter what you do not shake hands with men - but you have probably never been in a real corporate meeting with business executives so you cannot fully grasp the situation. |
I agree with amother. Shaking hands does not compromise your religion, but makes you sound immature. {no offence, I don't know you IRL} |
I HAVE been in real corporate meetings with business executives so I fully grasp the situation. It's not easy. (In fact it can be downright uncomfortable.) And yet I respectfully disagree and for me, I feel it does compromise my convictions (religious and otherwise). I don't really care how it makes me sound (immature, whatever) to others, though I do my best to decline handshakes politely and with poise.
I feel that the less fuss made, the better. A simple "nice to meet you, I don't shake hands with men for religious reasons" does the job.
If you are in a field where "no handshake" may cost you your job, it's a great idea to speak to your LOR to find out if you should be stringent in the first place. And if you disagree with this whole concept and feel that shaking hands is fine, then do whatever floats your boat. However, please respect those who don't want to shake, which the OP clearly stated.
And if it's just a matter of John Doe's personal opinion on your religion, I can tell you that just like I don't care that they don't like the fact that I will NEVER answer the phone on Shabbos, even if the Production system has crashed (this HAS happened, and they had to wait to Motzoei Shabbos, and it didn't cost me my job), it doesn't matter all that much to me if they like the fact that I don't shake hands with men. My own personal feelings and beliefs matter more to me.
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flowerpower
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 10:05 am
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I have come across this situation in the proffesional field a good few times. I had no problem saying "I'm sorry but we don't shake hands"(something in that affect). Even big professors were very ok with it. If you act like a mentch and act with a lot of confidence it's impressive enough. They never look down when saying it.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 11:02 am
| freidasima wrote: | | What in the first place makes you think that it is ossur to shake a man's hand in social situations? Can you show me where that issur is written? That specific issur? |
I don't have the sources nor do I hold by it, but it exists.
OP, I would do as I did for the cheek kiss in social situations: I asked my rav, and he told me what I can and can't do.
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AlwaysGrateful
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 11:18 am
| Chayalle wrote: | | 1Life2Live wrote: | | amother wrote: | | I know some of you here will bash me for it and say no matter what you do not shake hands with men - but you have probably never been in a real corporate meeting with business executives so you cannot fully grasp the situation. |
I agree with amother. Shaking hands does not compromise your religion, but makes you sound immature. {no offence, I don't know you IRL} |
I HAVE been in real corporate meetings with business executives so I fully grasp the situation. It's not easy. (In fact it can be downright uncomfortable.) And yet I respectfully disagree and for me, I feel it does compromise my convictions (religious and otherwise). I don't really care how it makes me sound (immature, whatever) to others, though I do my best to decline handshakes politely and with poise.
I feel that the less fuss made, the better. A simple "nice to meet you, I don't shake hands with men for religious reasons" does the job.
If you are in a field where "no handshake" may cost you your job, it's a great idea to speak to your LOR to find out if you should be stringent in the first place. And if you disagree with this whole concept and feel that shaking hands is fine, then do whatever floats your boat. However, please respect those who don't want to shake, which the OP clearly stated.
And if it's just a matter of John Doe's personal opinion on your religion, I can tell you that just like I don't care that they don't like the fact that I will NEVER answer the phone on Shabbos, even if the Production system has crashed (this HAS happened, and they had to wait to Motzoei Shabbos, and it didn't cost me my job), it doesn't matter all that much to me if they like the fact that I don't shake hands with men. My own personal feelings and beliefs matter more to me. |
This is an excellent post. And yes, I've btdt.
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Barbara
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 11:20 am
| tovli toraspicha wrote: | Keep in mind though, that if you do say something about the fact that you can't touch/shake hands with men for religious purposes, you should definitely explain somewhere in the course of the interview that for medical purposes it is allowed, as yaeli mentioned above.
I can imagine that if someone is looking to hire someone for a medical profession, and the potential employee says that they cannot shake hands with men (whether or not you add- because touching is considered very intimate in their religion) and therefore they do not touch the opposite gender even to shake hands, that would raise a red flag in the eyes of the employer. There is lot of touching involved in the medical profession, much more than just shaking hands, and if they think you are queasy about touching men, or unable to for religious purposes, they would dismiss your application.
(unless you are looking for a job that does not directly involve treating/caring for patients )
good luck! |
I came to write the same thing.
Even as a pharmacy tech, as a potential employer, I'd be concerned about what other things you wouldn't be willing to do, and particularly about whether you would be willing to dispense all meds for which there was a prescription (eg, RU-486).
I hope this works out. But if it doesn't, or even if it results in a second interview, can you talk to a career counselor about how you should best handle these situations?
Good luck.
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Ruchel
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 11:25 am
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I advise someone in medical profession to tell the boss "I can't shake, BUT when it is medical everything goes".
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AlwaysGrateful
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 11:27 am
| sarahla wrote: | | I fell uncomfortable asking a Rov because why should I compromise my religion so others dont feel comfortable why cant it be well im not shaking your hand we dont have to touch for you to give me a job... |
I just want to note that this part I do not agree with at all. If you ask a Rov and he says it's fine, it is not compromising your religion. You can even tell him that you don't feel comfortable bc you feel like it's compromising and you don't want too...and then see what he says.
And this is coming from someone who does not shake hands.
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farm
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 12:12 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | tovli toraspicha wrote: | Keep in mind though, that if you do say something about the fact that you can't touch/shake hands with men for religious purposes, you should definitely explain somewhere in the course of the interview that for medical purposes it is allowed, as yaeli mentioned above.
I can imagine that if someone is looking to hire someone for a medical profession, and the potential employee says that they cannot shake hands with men (whether or not you add- because touching is considered very intimate in their religion) and therefore they do not touch the opposite gender even to shake hands, that would raise a red flag in the eyes of the employer. There is lot of touching involved in the medical profession, much more than just shaking hands, and if they think you are queasy about touching men, or unable to for religious purposes, they would dismiss your application.
(unless you are looking for a job that does not directly involve treating/caring for patients )
good luck! |
I came to write the same thing.
Even as a pharmacy tech, as a potential employer, I'd be concerned about what other things you wouldn't be willing to do, and particularly about whether you would be willing to dispense all meds for which there was a prescription (eg, RU-486).
I hope this works out. But if it doesn't, or even if it results in a second interview, can you talk to a career counselor about how you should best handle these situations?
Good luck. |
The pharmacy tech does not have to know what RU-486 is in order to pull it from the shelf and package it for the customer. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
OP, you should ask your Rav, that's what he's there for. He will either tell you it's okay, in which case all your worrying was for naught, or he will tell you not too, and help you come up with a way to explain it respectfully.
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leomom
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 12:32 pm
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If you do decide to decline handshakes, I think it's best to leave out the words "religious," "men," "husband," or anything like that. It all happens fast when someone puts their hand out - so just be telegraphic - "Sorry, I can't shake" and SMILE and get right down to business!
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Barbara
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 12:42 pm
| farm wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | tovli toraspicha wrote: | Keep in mind though, that if you do say something about the fact that you can't touch/shake hands with men for religious purposes, you should definitely explain somewhere in the course of the interview that for medical purposes it is allowed, as yaeli mentioned above.
I can imagine that if someone is looking to hire someone for a medical profession, and the potential employee says that they cannot shake hands with men (whether or not you add- because touching is considered very intimate in their religion) and therefore they do not touch the opposite gender even to shake hands, that would raise a red flag in the eyes of the employer. There is lot of touching involved in the medical profession, much more than just shaking hands, and if they think you are queasy about touching men, or unable to for religious purposes, they would dismiss your application.
(unless you are looking for a job that does not directly involve treating/caring for patients )
good luck! |
I came to write the same thing.
Even as a pharmacy tech, as a potential employer, I'd be concerned about what other things you wouldn't be willing to do, and particularly about whether you would be willing to dispense all meds for which there was a prescription (eg, RU-486).
I hope this works out. But if it doesn't, or even if it results in a second interview, can you talk to a career counselor about how you should best handle these situations?
Good luck. |
The pharmacy tech does not have to know what RU-486 is in order to pull it from the shelf and package it for the customer. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
OP, you should ask your Rav, that's what he's there for. He will either tell you it's okay, in which case all your worrying was for naught, or he will tell you not too, and help you come up with a way to explain it respectfully. |
Not to start a debate here, but the right of pharmacists (and presumably techs) not to fill prescriptions, and what they, and their employers, must do, has been the subject of a great deal of debate and legislation over the past 10 years. Eg: | Quote: |
by Nishi Gupta
KTVB.COM
Posted on January 12, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Updated Monday, Jan 24 at 3:00 PM
Related:
Nampa pharmacist cleared of wrongdoing
NAMPA -- A new Idaho law enacted in 2010 is designed to protect medical professionals by allowing them to refuse health care services that conflict with their religious, moral or ethical principles.
But Planned Parenthood says a Nampa pharmacist acted in the wrong and was not protected by the law when she refused to fill a prescription.
Planned Parenthood has responded by filing a complaint with the state.
The prescription at the center of this is methergine. It’s used to prevent bleeding after childbirth or after an abortion.
In November, a Planned Parenthood nurse called this Nampa Walgreen's for a methergine prescription.
According to Planned Parenthood, the Walgreen's pharmacist asked if their patient had an abortion.
The nurse says she cited federal patient privacy laws and refused to answer.
"The pharmacist said, 'Well, if you're not going to tell me that and she had an abortion, I'm not going to fill this prescription.' And then our practitioner said, 'Why don't you tell me another pharmacy that I can call or another pharmacist that can dispense this medication for my patient?' And the pharmacist hung up on her," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
Planned Parenthood called the pharmacist's actions dangerous.
"In this situation our patient needed that medication and it could have been a life threatening thing had she not acquired it and for someone just to decide that they don't want to dispense it because they don't believe in that medication or they don't approve of a patient, it's just wrong," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
The Planned Parenthood nurse found medication from another provider, but wasn't through.
She filed a complaint with the state Board of Pharmacy, the agency that oversees Idaho pharmacists and their licenses.
The agency is reviewing to determine whether or not rules were broken.
"We're nearing the end of our investigation. Next week I think we should have a conclusion," said Mark Johnston of the Idaho Board of Pharmacy.
Planned Parenthood, though, is convinced the pharmacist broke the law.
In Idaho, pharmacists and health care providers can refuse to dispense emergency contraception or medications that induce abortions.
Methergine, according to Planned Parenthood, is neither.
"She did not act in the scope of the law, she was not in compliance with the law of Idaho," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
If the state board of pharmacy finds the pharmacist was in violation, she could face fines and lose her license.
Planned Parenthood says it was told the pharmacist received a refresher of Walgreen's corporate policy.
KTVB asked a Walgreen's spokesman if the pharmacist faced any disciplinary action.
We were told the company does not comment on personnel matters. |
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Mama Bear
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 1:21 pm
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Personally I think you should not use the word men at all; simply say, "Oh, hi. So sorry I cant shake hands for religious reasons, How are you today?" Leave out the men thing. let them think that for whatever religious reason you cant shake 'hands'; not that they, the men, are the 'problem'.
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Mrs Bissli
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 2:43 pm
OP, I strongly believe you DO need to consult your Rav. Otherwise what you're doing is poskening yourselves. Levels of comfort (or not) is not what halacha allows. You may be surprised.
If you insist, I suggest you put a very visible bandage or dressing on your hand. No awkward excuse required. Though I'm not a fan of "white lies", I can't think of any other way to get around the issue esp if you have been discriminated against. Explaining anything can diminish your chance of getting a job at such an early stage.
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sarahla
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 3:12 pm
thanks for all the replies. im kind of hard headed when it comes to things like that because now im so used to not being touch by a men (except my husband and dad) that I would feel extremely uncomfortable but putting that aside I wanted to address the issue about not giving out certain Rx: personally I will fill out all Rx im given it is not of me to judge and say "no I will not fill this Rx because its against my philosophy" its really none of my business since I really shouldn't be like "ohh mrs x is using birth control, well no wander why there is such a gap btw kids" what people take is what people take not for me to judge, im here to do my job efficiantly 
So let me tell you all about the "fair": totally NOT what I expected but BH it went well. It happened to be a Jewish company (Mezuzos on each door, and cEO came to the room wearing a yamulkah, I made eye contact and smile- hopefully he realized I was Jewish !!!) thank G-D I didn't have to shake ends with anyone since well a women interview me (they were 2 people a men and women ) The only thing I messed up on what as I was exiting the building I was going to kiss the mezuzah when I noticed the ceo hr and the guy interviwing smoking a cigaret so I got super nervous cause they were ALL STARING at me so I didn;t kiss the mezuzah which was super stupid cause then it would have been clear "hi im jewish please hire me !!!
Anyways thanks for all your advices and will keep you posted if IYH I get the job
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Chayalle
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 3:58 pm
| Mama Bear wrote: | | Personally I think you should not use the word men at all; simply say, "Oh, hi. So sorry I cant shake hands for religious reasons, How are you today?" Leave out the men thing. let them think that for whatever religious reason you cant shake 'hands'; not that they, the men, are the 'problem'. |
I don't agree with this approach, because I do shake hands with women. So I wouldn't want men to think it's anything personal against them - just a religious issue.
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farm
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 5:20 pm
| Barbara wrote: | | farm wrote: | | Barbara wrote: | | tovli toraspicha wrote: | Keep in mind though, that if you do say something about the fact that you can't touch/shake hands with men for religious purposes, you should definitely explain somewhere in the course of the interview that for medical purposes it is allowed, as yaeli mentioned above.
I can imagine that if someone is looking to hire someone for a medical profession, and the potential employee says that they cannot shake hands with men (whether or not you add- because touching is considered very intimate in their religion) and therefore they do not touch the opposite gender even to shake hands, that would raise a red flag in the eyes of the employer. There is lot of touching involved in the medical profession, much more than just shaking hands, and if they think you are queasy about touching men, or unable to for religious purposes, they would dismiss your application.
(unless you are looking for a job that does not directly involve treating/caring for patients )
good luck! |
I came to write the same thing.
Even as a pharmacy tech, as a potential employer, I'd be concerned about what other things you wouldn't be willing to do, and particularly about whether you would be willing to dispense all meds for which there was a prescription (eg, RU-486).
I hope this works out. But if it doesn't, or even if it results in a second interview, can you talk to a career counselor about how you should best handle these situations?
Good luck. |
The pharmacy tech does not have to know what RU-486 is in order to pull it from the shelf and package it for the customer. I think that's a bit of a stretch.
OP, you should ask your Rav, that's what he's there for. He will either tell you it's okay, in which case all your worrying was for naught, or he will tell you not too, and help you come up with a way to explain it respectfully. |
Not to start a debate here, but the right of pharmacists (and presumably techs) not to fill prescriptions, and what they, and their employers, must do, has been the subject of a great deal of debate and legislation over the past 10 years. Eg: | Quote: |
by Nishi Gupta
KTVB.COM
Posted on January 12, 2011 at 9:38 PM
Updated Monday, Jan 24 at 3:00 PM
Related:
Nampa pharmacist cleared of wrongdoing
NAMPA -- A new Idaho law enacted in 2010 is designed to protect medical professionals by allowing them to refuse health care services that conflict with their religious, moral or ethical principles.
But Planned Parenthood says a Nampa pharmacist acted in the wrong and was not protected by the law when she refused to fill a prescription.
Planned Parenthood has responded by filing a complaint with the state.
The prescription at the center of this is methergine. It’s used to prevent bleeding after childbirth or after an abortion.
In November, a Planned Parenthood nurse called this Nampa Walgreen's for a methergine prescription.
According to Planned Parenthood, the Walgreen's pharmacist asked if their patient had an abortion.
The nurse says she cited federal patient privacy laws and refused to answer.
"The pharmacist said, 'Well, if you're not going to tell me that and she had an abortion, I'm not going to fill this prescription.' And then our practitioner said, 'Why don't you tell me another pharmacy that I can call or another pharmacist that can dispense this medication for my patient?' And the pharmacist hung up on her," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
Planned Parenthood called the pharmacist's actions dangerous.
"In this situation our patient needed that medication and it could have been a life threatening thing had she not acquired it and for someone just to decide that they don't want to dispense it because they don't believe in that medication or they don't approve of a patient, it's just wrong," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
The Planned Parenthood nurse found medication from another provider, but wasn't through.
She filed a complaint with the state Board of Pharmacy, the agency that oversees Idaho pharmacists and their licenses.
The agency is reviewing to determine whether or not rules were broken.
"We're nearing the end of our investigation. Next week I think we should have a conclusion," said Mark Johnston of the Idaho Board of Pharmacy.
Planned Parenthood, though, is convinced the pharmacist broke the law.
In Idaho, pharmacists and health care providers can refuse to dispense emergency contraception or medications that induce abortions.
Methergine, according to Planned Parenthood, is neither.
"She did not act in the scope of the law, she was not in compliance with the law of Idaho," said Kristen Glundberg-Prosser of the Planned Parenthood of the Great Northwest.
If the state board of pharmacy finds the pharmacist was in violation, she could face fines and lose her license.
Planned Parenthood says it was told the pharmacist received a refresher of Walgreen's corporate policy.
KTVB asked a Walgreen's spokesman if the pharmacist faced any disciplinary action.
We were told the company does not comment on personnel matters. | |
Thanks for posting, this would make for a really great discussion in an ethics class. I still stand firm that this issue will not come up with a pharmacy tech. Firstly, many do not know what they are pulling off the shelf, and secondly, if she makes a stink and refuses to do it, the pharmacist will do it his or herself, with no ramifications to the patient.
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Barbara
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 5:25 pm
| sarahla wrote: | thanks for all the replies. im kind of hard headed when it comes to things like that because now im so used to not being touch by a men (except my husband and dad) that I would feel extremely uncomfortable but putting that aside I wanted to address the issue about not giving out certain Rx: personally I will fill out all Rx im given it is not of me to judge and say "no I will not fill this Rx because its against my philosophy" its really none of my business since I really shouldn't be like "ohh mrs x is using birth control, well no wander why there is such a gap btw kids" what people take is what people take not for me to judge, im here to do my job efficiantly
So let me tell you all about the "fair": totally NOT what I expected but BH it went well. It happened to be a Jewish company (Mezuzos on each door, and cEO came to the room wearing a yamulkah, I made eye contact and smile- hopefully he realized I was Jewish !!!) thank G-D I didn't have to shake ends with anyone since well a women interview me (they were 2 people a men and women ) The only thing I messed up on what as I was exiting the building I was going to kiss the mezuzah when I noticed the ceo hr and the guy interviwing smoking a cigaret so I got super nervous cause they were ALL STARING at me so I didn;t kiss the mezuzah which was super stupid cause then it would have been clear "hi im jewish please hire me !!!
Anyways thanks for all your advices and will keep you posted if IYH I get the job |
Fingers crossed for you.
Just wanted to say ... I didn't necessarily think that you would refuse to dispense any particular meds. Just that it could be a concern to a potential employer.
While I do shake hands, I would be very curious to know how a career counselor would suggest that you handle this in the future, if you do happen to ask one. Its something that comes up not infrequently here.
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Raisin
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Wed, Nov 02 2011, 5:33 pm
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barbara, since halchically there are cases where abortion is allowed, and the pharmacist doesn't know if the customer is one of those people, why should it be a problem to dispense the medication?
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