Wanna marry me??????/

Raizle

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 12:56 am

marina wrote:

kitov wrote:

marina wrote:

Are you really implying that there was any sort of danger that religious clerics would be forced to perform marriages they did not agree with? Any law that remotely allowed for that would immediately be struck down as violating the federal constitution, so yeah, I'm sure they changed it pronto so the law wouldn't be slapped down asap.

More so, as to avoid discrimination lawsuits against owners of shuls, wedding halls or churches that would refuse to rent their places for a same gender chassunah. In other words, the state of ny will acknowledge your wedding, but no one can be forced to officiate, cater, or set up such a wedding.

Same answer

to all those people who are noting that more people will now be getting divorced, I imagine that was also your response when misegenation statutes were outlawed as well?

the point was more marriages, more potential for divorces.
has nothing to do with being gay or not.
you widen the marriage pool you also widen the divorce pool

it has nothing to with opinions on gay marriages or not, it was just a quip she made

DrMom

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 1:38 am

kitov wrote:

marina wrote:

Of course they cannot force clergy to officiate at weddings that are against their religion to perform. They cannot force a Catholic priest to perform a marriage between a divorcee if his religion does not allow him to. They cannot force an Orthodox rabbi to perform an intermarriage. They cannot force a Greek orthodox priest to marry someone who has not been baptized into the Greek Orthodox church. Theer are no such laws like that in the US, as they are clearly unconstitutional. This is merely a scare tactic.

allrgymama

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 7:30 am

@MaBelleVie: not once in my comments did I suggest that people should be cheering for gay marriage. I said that people shouldn't be making fun of it.

And I disagree TREMENDOUSLY with what the female rabbi in Albany did the other day. It was a tremendous chillul Hashem on multiple levels.

@Simple1: agreed. But there are people who are screaming down the gays even without the legalization of marriage since, after all, it still isn't legal in most states. If Jewish people aren't making fun of murderers or thieves and aren't standing in protest lines to support their imprisonment or capital punishment for them, then Jewish people are singling out the only one of the shevas mitzvos binei Noach that actually makes some people happy.

nylon

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 8:14 am

Today's Times editorial points out that the protection for clergy was unnecessary because NY law already says they are protected--they have the right to marry people according to their beliefs. Otherwise, they'd be sued for religious discrimination!

I don't think a wedding hall IS protected if it's just a private business. It's subject to regular discrimination law. A synagogue hall is protected, but not a catering hall that just happens to be owned by a frum Jew. The law protects "religious organizations." I don't think anyone would have stood for language that permitted an ordinary caterer, florist, what have you to reject gay couples. They're public businesses.

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 9:51 am

allrgymama wrote:

Wow. I missed a lot.

Admittedly, I did not read all of the comments. I didn't need to.

What people seem to forget is that what Hashem considers to be 'wrong' is the homosexual act, not homosexual people themselves. To say that there exists something in this world (even if it is 'just' a taivah') that Hashem did not put here is apikorses; Hashem controls everything and puts everything. If Hashem did not put that taivah in this world, we would not have a commandment stopping us from doing it. So it follows that Hashem put this taivah in the world as a struggle for some people to live with.

Does it bother you so much when a [gentile] kills someone, something that is also in shevas mitzvas binei Noach? Or steals? Or uses God's name in vain/blasphemy? Or worships more than one God?

Most likely NOT. They are non jews and so you do not concern yourself with them. So why does it make a difference to you if they do this thing, too? Do you think they're going to have more s*x or less safe s*x or, honestly, I can't even imagine what, now that gay marriage HAS been legalized? Even if they do, HOW does this make a difference to your life?

It doesn't. So then the only thing being accomplished in this thread is a mockery of real people who are abstract to you.

So yes. Shame on all of you who made a thread just to make fun of people. (The other threads at least pretend to be discussing it from an intellectual or religious point of view, which is why you may not have seen me outright say 'shame on you' until now.)

You really think that it won't have an impact? Leaving aside the advisability of legalizing drugs, do you think that if drugs were legalized it would have no impact on us? If cigarettes could be sold to minors, do you think it would have no effect on us even though everyone knows about the imperative of "venishmartem me'od l'nafshoseichem"?
Sure, the Torah says no about this, but we would still have to do a lot of 'splainin'. Once something becomes a societal norm it definitely impacts us. We don't live in bubbles. I mean, we're all on the internet, for goodness sakes.
So start using your imagination.

princessleah

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 10:37 am

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

can someone point me to an article about the woman rabbi in albany? I am interested to see who ti is

She's not a female Rabbi IN Albany, she is a female Rabbi who WENT to Albany to protest. It is Rabbi Sharon Kleinbaum, who is the Rabbi of Beit Simchat Torah, the Gay/Lesbian shul in Manhattan.

And guess what everybody? Do you know what's been legal in New York for DECADES? Marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew! In fact, there are couples married today who then produce children who are not Jewish, and if the Jewish parent dies ch''v the spouse is left with all rights of a legal spouse. As Jews we must not allow this to happen-- it is totally against our religion!
Why aren't we protesting against that? Being ok with legal intermarriage CONDONES these inter-faith marriages!

Ima2NYM_LTR

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 10:47 am

princessleah wrote:

And guess what everybody? Do you know what's been legal in New York for DECADES? Marriage between a Jew and a non-Jew! In fact, there are couples married today who then produce children who are not Jewish, and if the Jewish parent dies ch''v the spouse is left with all rights of a legal spouse. As Jews we must not allow this to happen-- it is totally against our religion!
Why aren't we protesting against that? Being ok with legal intermarriage CONDONES these inter-faith marriages!

you know- you are right! This needs to stop now. It is not the place of the NYS legislature to allow what Torah forbids!

Simple1

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 10:52 am

princessleah wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

can someone point me to an article about the woman rabbi in albany? I am interested to see who ti is

I don't see most people protesting, just that they don't want to actually support and show approval for it.

allrgymama

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 11:28 am

PinkFridge: there are quite a number of well-educated people who believe that if drugs were legalized and controlled there would less drug abuse and less of a market for it. I'm not an expert, but there are studies and projections done about it. People are drawn to do things that are illegal. If it isn't illegal, it doesn't carry as much of a thrill.

I know this has nothing to do with gay marriage -- straight people haven't been marrying gay people for the 'thrill'. But your comment about legalizing drugs has nothing to do with this issue either. Marijuana is less harmful to your body than alcohol and caffeine and white sugar (among other things) but I'm sure that some, if not all of those things, are in your pantry/fridge?

Like Princessleah said: state law allows for the legality of things that we, as Orthodox Jews, hold to be 'illegal'. Are you protesting that non jews shouldn't be eating pork? Or shellfish? Or having pre-marital relations? Or dressed in ways we consider to be immodest? No. You just protect your children as best as you can and keep those things out of your house. The same way you tell a child they can't eat a certain food because it's kosher, if you see two men walking down the street holding hands or kissing (something I'm SURE no pair of gay men are going to do in heavily populated Jewish areas; I don't think I've ever seen a STRAIGHT couple making out on 16th avenue in Boro Park) then you just tell your kid 'this isn't for us'

This is a link to a post on Jezebel (I really don't recommend that the site join your regular reading) about the female rabbi in Albany and the Chassidish man who spit at her feet: http://jezebel.com/5814123/ult.....rally\

@Simple1: Again, I don't have a problem with protesting, if done from a logical or religious or intellectual point of view. This post isn't about that. This post is about making fun of people. How is that okay?

princessleah

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 11:43 am

Simple1 wrote:

princessleah wrote:

Ima2NYM_LTR wrote:

can someone point me to an article about the woman rabbi in albany? I am interested to see who ti is

I don't see most people protesting, just that they don't want to actually support and show approval for it.

So how does that actually play out in practical terms?
There was no vote on it by the people.
Some actually protested, like the people in the video who got angry at the Rabbi.
Some don't protest but don't want to support or show approval by... grumbling amongst themselves? Making jokes on imamother? Is that serving the cause in any way?

I support legalization of gay marriage but I don't actually do anything active to support it, short of internet commentating. I'll admit that, but I don't think my 'support' is having any impact on the issue one way or another.

Come election day, I"ll put my vote where my mouth is.

princessleah

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 11:44 am

allrgymama wrote:

I liked one of the comments made: why does this Rabbi have to be tolerant/respectful of these men's religious beliefs when they are basically campaigning to negate her relationships and lifestyle? Why does one disrespect/negation not deserve another?

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 1:49 pm

allrgymama wrote:

Like Princessleah said: state law allows for the legality of things that we, as Orthodox Jews, hold to be 'illegal'. Are you protesting that non jews shouldn't be eating pork? Or shellfish? Or having pre-marital relations? Or dressed in ways we consider to be immodest? No. You just protect your children as best as you can and keep those things out of your house. The same way you tell a child they can't eat a certain food because it's kosher, if you see two men walking down the street holding hands or kissing (something I'm SURE no pair of gay men are going to do in heavily populated Jewish areas; I don't think I've ever seen a STRAIGHT couple making out on 16th avenue in Boro Park) then you just tell your kid 'this isn't for us'

There's a difference between non-Jews doing things that are ok for them, such as eating pork and shellfish, and doing things are not ok for them according to sheva mitzvos bnei noach- which includes forbidden relationships. Jews are affected when non-Jews do not follow what G-d expects from THEM.

You can tell your kids that non-Jews are allowed to eat pork. You can't tell your kids that non-Jews are allowed to engage in gay s-x.

Barbara

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 2:15 pm

MaBelleVie wrote:

allrgymama wrote:

I also don't tell my children that the US should legislate in accordance with the dictates of any religion. Because once I do that, I have to acknowledge and accept that the religious laws that are going to be applied are Christian, since the majority of Americans are Christians. And *I* don't want marriage to be governed by Christian law.

And heaven help us if the majority are Muslims, because then we'd all have to agree that sharia should be imposed.

For a reasoned political commentary on same zex marriage, see David Frum (yes, the conservative) article http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINIO.....hp_c2

MaBelleVie

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 2:22 pm

Barbara wrote:

MaBelleVie wrote:

allrgymama wrote:

I agree. We're all a lot better off with separation of church and state. At the same time, we don't have to be the ones saying- "but these poor people! why can't everyone just embrace them and advocate for their lifestyle?" I do feel terrible for anyone who struggles through life due to whatever reason, zxual orientation included. But I can't say, as a religious Jew, that I support gay marriage. Whether or not they are legally entitled is not really up to me. I can't say the gov't is being unconstitutional in legalizing it. But I won't support it.

allrgymama

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 2:51 pm

@PrincessLeah: that comment must have been made by someone who didn't realize that, in order to be ordained as a rabbi, one must know halacha and Torah. A rabbi should identify as Jewish first and anything else second. She failed as a rabbi by disregarding halacha, putting her personal feelings first and putting her arm around him.

He reacted (albeit strongly) how he was supposed to; by moving away from her and giving her mussar.

And when gay relations are against the Torah, protesting gay marriage is closer to what Hashem wants than what she was doing.

@MaBelleVie: Granted. But your five year old doesn't know that.

Beyond that, we go back to my earlier question. If you aren't making a post to mock murders and thieves, why should there be a post mocking people in love?

PinkFridge

Mon, Jun 27 2011, 3:09 pm

[quote="allrgymama"]

Like Princessleah said: state law allows for the legality of things that we, as Orthodox Jews, hold to be 'illegal'. Are you protesting that non jews shouldn't be eating pork? Or shellfish? Or having pre-marital relations? Or dressed in ways we consider to be immodest? No. You just protect your children as best as you can and keep those things out of your house. The same way you tell a child they can't eat a certain food because it's kosher, if you see two men walking down the street holding hands or kissing (something I'm SURE no pair of gay men are going to do in heavily populated Jewish areas; I don't think I've ever seen a STRAIGHT couple making out on 16th avenue in Boro Park) then you just tell your kid 'this isn't for us' ]

Yeah, I probably shouldn't have brought drugs into this. But there's a difference between explaining to little kids that there are certain foods we don't eat, eating being a process kids learn about at an early age, and explaining that we don't have a choice to marry a man or a woman, it's only one or the other. In an already-oversexualized society I think there's going to be that much more stuff in our face that we'll have to deal with with our kids earlier than we'd like. I'll be happy to be wrong.