Wanna marry me??????/

mama-star

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 10:39 am

marina wrote:

the ignorance is appalling.

Do you really wonder, havefaith, whether a measure to allow people to marry and cement their monogamous relationship will cause more people to get HIV?

Do you really think, opinionated, that gay people have higher divorce rates than straights? Is that based on some recent studies out of massachusetts or vermont?

there can't be a statistical poll as to whether gay people have higher divorce rates than straight people, because gay marriage is relatively new. so the idea of "gay divorce" is also new and therefore accuracy cannot be gauged. but yes, it is likely now that gay marriage is being legalized that yes, divorce lawyers will be a bit busier, because YES, married people DO get divorced.

kitov

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 11:18 am

Simple1 wrote:

allrgymama wrote:

This entire thread is entirely offensive.

Until you spend your whole lives hearing from the majority world about how you aren't entitled to live with the person you want to in the way that you want to -- ways that do no harm to no one -- none of you have a right here to make fun.

We are all incredibly blessed to not have been challenged by Hashem in this way.

Shame on (almost) all of you.

I was not going to post in this thread. But this is a little harsh on people who are simply expressing what they feel is the Torah view. Can you also extend the "shame on you" to all Republicans and Conservatives (about half of secular Americans) who are often against gay marriage?

For the record, I don't really have strong feelings about what other people do, but I'd prefer them not to call it marriage - let them have civil unions.

nylon

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 11:58 am

yummymummy wrote:

nylon wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

marina wrote:

Do you really think, opinionated, that gay people have higher divorce rates than straights? Is that based on some recent studies out of massachusetts or vermont?

I didn't think Opinionated implied that they would have a higher divorce rate, just that even if they have the same divorce rate as straight couples it would generate more work for divorce attorneys.

I was going to mention that she should look at the bright side of things - more work for wedding planners, wedding venues, photographers, caterers, etc. Proponents of the bill have suggested that it generate $400 million for the state. Of course, opponents point out that the newfound bill would allow spouses to receive Social Security benefits, unemployment benefits, disability benefits and inheritance benefits that would strip the state of revenue.

The federal government does not recognize same relations marriages yet. So no Social Security, SSDI, or Medicare benefits for those spouses. Some couples are fighting with the IRS over taxes, but so far the IRS position has been no. You qualify for unemployment on your own record, not your spouse's. You can claim the NYS "married filing jointly" exemption, that's it. Second, gay couples tend to be higher income (more DINKs!) so they're already contributing plenty into the tax pool. Gay couples are not about to bankrupt the government.

Civil unions were a flop. They were a second class status and everyone perceived it that way. Judaism has a specific definition of marriage but it's not one I feel applies to the US government.

The above was a quote from Sen. John Bonacic, R-Mount Hope, Orange County. I have seen the social security and medicare arguments mentioned in California as well as other articles discussing the financial impact of legalizing gay marriage in NY so I'm not sure it's so clear cut.

The Defense of Marriage Act defines marriage on the federal level as "one man, one woman". Legalizing gay marriage in NY does nothing to change federal law. They are deliberately confusing national legalization with NY's act.

Here's the official SSA position:

http://www.ssa.gov/OP_Home/han......html

Until DOMA is repealed, the feds will not recognize a same-s*x marriage.

kitov

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:23 pm

allrgymama wrote:

This entire thread is entirely offensive.

Until you spend your whole lives hearing from the majority world about how you ____________________

Shame on (almost) all of you.

I edited a part of your post, to explain a different perspective.

"Until you spent your whole life hearing from the majority world about how you_____________," Fill in the blank as you please.

Growing up as a chassidishe yid, means being part of a minority within a minority. Almost every single poster on imamother who is NOT chassidish, has had her negative perception of our lifestyle, our chumros, our rabbanim and what not. And yet, never did I encounter such a post as yours, with a shame on you, or complaining of offensive comments. It was a given. But as soon as the roles are reversed, it was a light humor thread about a topic contradictory to a torah life, we get a shame on you......

Yup, we spent our entire life hearing from the majority of the world negative comments, and still felt that a light tap on the topic isn't offensive.

Shame on you for your double standard.

Last edited by kitov on Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total

MaBelleVie

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:23 pm

allrgymama wrote:

Legalizing gay marriage has nothing to do with people living with whom they want in ways they want to. It has everything to do with recognizing their partnership as a marriage, with whatever benefits that comes along with in that state.

Also, since you recognize this as a challenge from Hashem- and not something He intended as the norm- how can you believe that gay relationships are ok? I agree that the nisayon must be terrible. But that doesn't make it ok to normalize it.

Inspired

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:30 pm

kitov wrote:

allrgymama wrote:

This entire thread is entirely offensive.

Until you spend your whole lives hearing from the majority world about how you ____________________

Shame on (almost) all of you.

You think this is a comparison? Seriously? Have you ever spoken to a person with a same relations attraction about their struggle? I think you should think a little more about what is being said here. I think it will enhance your life to understand that some people just have challenges you cannot comprehend.

kitov

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:41 pm

Inspired wrote:

kitov wrote:

allrgymama wrote:

This entire thread is entirely offensive.

Until you spend your whole lives hearing from the majority world about how you ____________________

Shame on (almost) all of you.

When a thread is started with the sheer intention of light humor, and is veered into "shame on you" highway, I respond likewise.

I understand it's a struggle for some, and a choice for others. This thread was not to mock the strugglers, only the defenders.

Tell me BTW, do these tallis donning, yarmulke wearing, self proclaimed female rabbis also struggle with same gender attraction, or are they letting their voice be heard only because this issue is clearly kneged hatorah?

This thread is dedicated to them.

freidasima

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 12:46 pm

Smilingmom you are a breath of fresh air on this clericofascist site! (I'm always being called clericofascist by my secular colleagues so it's so much fun to use it on someone else!)

Now seriously, mind your own business everyone. Same sekx marriage only means legalizing in terms of status, money etc, not hechsherizing in terms of religion.

Women who wear taleisim aren't lesbians like men who wear skirts in scotland aren't gay. Grow up everyone.

And as for Rome, get real. Homosekxuality was used as birth control in Rome not as a lifestyle choice. They all had wives for pru urvu and boys for their fun.

Besides, to tell you the truth, psychologists/biologists have shown over and over that anyone can be taught to perform with a member of the same sekx, whether attracted or not. Interestingly, they can't always be taught to perform with a member of the opposite sekx...

Soll Sein Gesint und Shtark!

freidasima

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 1:07 pm

lama "lesbie"?
We bunch of kikes on this site take offense to someone calling us that, no? Because we have a name. It's called JEWS. Yehudim from the name Yehuda son of Ya'kov also known as Yisroel and we are also known as the Bnai Yisroel.
And guess what? they have a name, it's called Lesbians. Taken from the name of the island of Lesbos where women loved and matched with other women.

As for the charedi issues being discussed here, when someone brings them up it's as a question and looking for viewpoints. Hence I give my viewpoint. But here I have a serious question because it seems to me that most of the posters have no idea what the real meaning of secular single sekx marriage is - totally social/economic. Do you think that two women who have signed a piece of paper stating that they are each other's life partners and are raising children together do not have the right if one of them dies for the other, who will be caring for their mutual children (adopted by one, mothered by another), to receive the same social security benefits that a legal partner of the opposite sekx would have gotten? Do you think that in places that state that only a legal spouse can go along with a person for something there is a difference whether that legal spouse is a man or a woman?

We aren't talking religion. We are talking benefits. Economic benefits and in practice, nothing more.
Are you all against that?

That's what I am talking about when I say "mind your own business". Not the religious angle of it. The very permissible legal-financial angle which no religion has anything to say about, be them pro or against single sekx unions...

PinkFridge

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 2:13 pm

[quote="gold21"]ok kitov I will marry you as long as

7: you plan to breastfeed your babies for at least 2 years each

9: you will do upsherin with our boys]

Breastfeed "your" babies, upsheer "our" boys...hm....

But to get serious, I don't like the term marriage. I'm sorry civil unions flopped. And while we understand the depths of marriage, and for the world at large marriage is still largely a civil construct, face it, the people who want it will imbue marriage with all the (quite possible pseudo but still) spiritual trimmings. We are not bigots for standing up against legalizing marriage, and if we do it with civility, dignity, and in a well thought out and spoken way we can and will make a kiddush Hashem.

kitov

Sun, Jun 26 2011, 3:09 pm

freidasima wrote:

But Kitov, that's the nitty gritty, what it's all about. Economic rights. Validating shmalidating, is the charedi world up in army every time a [gentile] decides to build a church? That's a lot worse actually if we are talking religion...so why now?

Maybe because, contrary to the wishes of missionaries, churches are for non jews, period. And here, with same gender marriages, there were yidden defending it, and there are yidden waiting to utilize the new law.