Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

realeez

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 12:17 am

saw50st8 wrote:

HY, I didn't make it about you, you did. Only you know truly if you are doing your best. I was giving some examples of how people can decrease expenses or increase their funds to pay for additional tuition. If you are doing your best, kol hakavod to you.

I have no problem with people who use food stamps. I have a problem when people have no plan on how to get OFF social welfare programs. If you say "I'm going to be in school for 4 years and then get a job etc etc" and have a plan, even if you can't stick to it. But your plan shouldn't be "I'll forever be on food stamps and scholarships."

Maybe you live in this ideal town where everyone is eating rice and beans to support the local Yeshiva. I can tell you in all three cities I've lived in (all three with major Jewish populations), tuition was the back burner, because "a rich person will cover the rest."

Atali, everyone around me has cleaning help. Its a cultural norm here. Even the people on scholarship. I'm a rarity in that we don't have it and the reason we don't get it (we could use it) is because its a luxury we don't want to get trapped into "needing." I think once you get cleaning help it really becomes hard to function without it.

I think the reason many schools are closing is that the economy has hit a lot of rich donors who can no longer afford to fund as many tzedakas or with as large donations.

We are doing everything we can right now to save for Yeshiva tuition, something I know many of my friends are not. One said to me "I can pay full tuition, but why should I?" Maybe I'm just jaded.

JOOC, how much is yeshiva tuition where you live?

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 6:27 am

Chavamom, the current economic realities make it that much harder, but this was a huge problem BEFORE the economic crash. The difference is there are less rich donors making up the difference now and fiscal irresponsibility. I think saying you value your sanity over a yeshiva education is a fair statement and honest. Most people don't want to admit that.

Again, this was not a blanket "everyone who has XYZ is evil" - its that people don't often prioritze enough money for Yeshiva tuition. Are there people specifically affected by the economy that can't pay what they used to? Yes, and we should be helping them. But I know a lot of people in the same economic position or those who reduced their salaries and refuse to reduce their expenses.

realeez, tuition where I am is $15-17,000/year. Because of that we are looking into sending our kids to a school that's about 55-60 minutes away because it has a great education and is $8500/year.

ra_mom, my kids are not in Yeshiva yet. But we pay daycare of $8500/child per year. We are also making sure to save now for tuition while we can - we already have a few years socked away.

amother

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 8:40 am

saw50st8 wrote:

ra_mom, my kids are not in Yeshiva yet. But we pay daycare of $8500/child per year. We are also making sure to save now for tuition while we can - we already have a few years socked away.

This changes the picture entirely. I don't think you should speak so forcefully and judgmentally on an issue that does not yet involve you. At this point you're simply imagining what it will be like. What chutzpa! There are people on this board paying 8 tuitions. Even at $8,500, which is a common tuition where I live, if you have eight kids in school you're looking at a tuition bill of $68,000. Actually, it would be more, because with eight kids some of those tuitions would be high school, which costs more. So you're talking about $75,000-$80,000.

And you want people to pay full tuition? You judge them that they can't pay full tuition? Do you think eating beans will help a family whose combined income is $40,000 or $50,000 to pay a tuition bill of $75,000? Did you know that the median combined family income in New York City is $48,631? And in the U.S. it's $50,140. Median means half earn less than this.

What do you and your husband do for a living that you can talk about throwing money around so easily? Or are you just Superwoman? Get back to us in ten years when you have a houseful of kids in school - you'll be singing a different tune.

amother

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 8:47 am

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

ra_mom, my kids are not in Yeshiva yet. But we pay daycare of $8500/child per year. We are also making sure to save now for tuition while we can - we already have a few years socked away.

Wow. Those numbers are shocking. So I don't understand - what's the grand plan? How can a couple with eight children actually plan on sending them all to private school? Who's the generous patron who is supposed to subsidize all this? It seems like a house of cards.

My parents pulled me out of private Jewish school in elementary, when tuition fees were hiked. I went to public school because there was no choice.
I think all parents need to make some difficult choices because the numbers above are impossible. Either have 2 children instead of 8 or send them to public school or find a way to earn 150 K per year.
Otherwise I just don't see how all the schools won't close down within a decade, now that benefactors are few.

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 8:52 am

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

ra_mom, my kids are not in Yeshiva yet. But we pay daycare of $8500/child per year. We are also making sure to save now for tuition while we can - we already have a few years socked away.

If you have 8 children, maybe homeschooling is a better option.

Its not so much about paying full tuition - its more about doing everything you can to pay your tuition, and only asking for a break if you need it, not to support your luxuries.

DH and I aren't going to have 8 kids in large part because we can't afford it. Someone has to pay the bills.

Today, people want it all (and this is in no particular order and in not particular to any group) - 14 years of yeshiva education PLUS seminary/beis medrash, fancy weddings, learning full time in Kollel, fancy clothing, lots of shoes, bugaboos and other fancy strollers, newly leased cars, cleaning help, expensive groceries, takeout, gardeners, the latest phones/computers/videogames/gadgetry etc etc etc.

So take your pick. How are you going to afford your lifestyle?

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 8:58 am

realeez wrote:

chavamom wrote:

BTW - most people in the know about economics say that schools (and private school, not just Jewish ones) can't begin to survive on tuition alone and need to build a substantial endowment to survive.

I remember overhearing the executive director of a different school saying that tuition doesn't last more than the first couple of months of the year.

What I've heard is that tuition covers the basic school expenses, but anything relating to building advancements or special projects are covered by the endowments.

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:01 am

Amother, most people earning $50,000 aren't sending their kids to private school.

My husband and I are both engineers. We went for professions that pay decent salaries and will allow us to pay our bills. I would LOVE to be a stay at home mom, but its virtually impossible, unless I homeschool. I don't think I would be good at homeschooling my kids and think they are better off in school.

But remember, we are ALREADY saving money for tuition because we see the handwriting on the wall. We do have some luxuries and that will be the first to go if we can't pay full tuition. The community has no obligation to pay for my gardener, even though it means that I would be spending most of my sunday on yardwork and need to stay up even later to clean my house.

Maybe its the way I was raised...obligations first, luxuries second.

realeez

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:03 am

saw50st8 wrote:

realeez wrote:

chavamom wrote:

BTW - most people in the know about economics say that schools (and private school, not just Jewish ones) can't begin to survive on tuition alone and need to build a substantial endowment to survive.

I remember overhearing the executive director of a different school saying that tuition doesn't last more than the first couple of months of the year.

What I've heard is that tuition covers the basic school expenses, but anything relating to building advancements or special projects are covered by the endowments.

Again, it depends on the school size. A school with small classes will probably have the same expenses as a school with larger-sized classes but even with everyone paying full tuition and even with people taking out second mortgages as was the case with this school, it's not going to go too far. Regardless, I think this discussion should be split. Someone here is hurting that her son's school closed down in the middle of the year and she has to find him a new school and help him adjust in the middle of the year while we have to hear that if only she would have eaten beans and not had cleaning help, this never would have happened?

amother

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:11 am

saw50st8 wrote:

DH and I aren't going to have 8 kids in large part because we can't afford it. Someone has to pay the bills.

saw50st8 wrote:

Amother, most people earning $50,000 aren't sending their kids to private school.

Actually, in the Orthodox/Chassidic communities, absolutely they are. And $50,000 is a very common income - it's even considered high in some circles. It is the community standard and expectation that just as they refuse to limit their family size except in certain circumstances, so too they send their kids to yeshiva. You are clearly living in another world and another mindset, combining secular values and lifestyle with a Jewish lifestyle. And you think you know everything. As far as I'm concerned, this discussion is over.

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 9:22 am

amother wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

DH and I aren't going to have 8 kids in large part because we can't afford it. Someone has to pay the bills.

saw50st8 wrote:

Amother, most people earning $50,000 aren't sending their kids to private school.

Feel free to think this is over.

In Chassidish communities, the cost of schools are very low. I can only assume it is subsidized by some of the wealthier population.

Also, those earning smaller salaries are often relying on things like WIC and foodstamps.

I'm in the mindset of fiscal responsibility. Please tell me where in Tanach, Mishnah, Gemara, Rishonim, Acharonim or any obscure sefer it says that its better to leech of society than to earn your own keep. AFAIK, the Torah talks about the importance of teaching your child a trade so that they won't have to steal to eat. Reliance on tzedaka for survival is not really a Jewish concept.

Also, what's wrong with homeschooling? On a salary of $50,000, a family can live with basics and homeschool. Please tell me why that means limiting your family size. Have 100 kids for all I care, I'm just not going to subsidize you.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:42 am

saw50st8 wrote:

I deleted my post that started this before you responded...but my point was you make these haughty expectations of others without knowing how it's NOT due to "laziness" or any of their own fault that people can't afford the pricing of yeshiva tuition. It's the achrayus of the community to change the way things are run (I like the idea of cutting back on principals/administrators) -- not most individuals who are doing their best. I just can't stand your posts judging people who haven't sold their engagement ring (to help what? It wouldn't even pay a year of a kid's tuition) as if it's their fault they can't pay full tuition.

Quote:

Maybe I'm just jaded.

Yes, you are.

saw50st8

Thu, Nov 04 2010, 10:46 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

Quote:

Maybe I'm just jaded.

Yes, you are.

HY, I think the schools have the responsibility to reduce expenses as well, but I think parents have to do their utmost to pay tuition.

Not everyone who can't pay full tuition is lazy. Many people make bad decisions or end up in bad situations. I'm not against helping people - I'm against helping people who won't help themselves.

This all started because I said I wasn't surprised that schools are closing. You can float bad decisions during good economic times, during bad ones, you can't hide them anymore. Bad decisions are made all around.