Prioritizing Tuition (Split from School Closing)

JAWSCIENCE

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 6:50 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

I do not believe it is unreasonable to expect parents to pay a manageable amount for as long as it takes.

Also, realize that the $10K you quoted will go down as more parents are required to pay tuition (over time). If you spread your fixed cost over a greater number of students the per student cost goes down.

This system/reduction will of course be difficult to implement in the beginning.

What is a fixed cost? The more kids are enrolled, the more classrooms you need, the more teachers you need, the more sprinklers you need, the more insurance you need.

Also, our administrators also serve as police officers. We cannot do without them.

So who exactly would you like to pay for all of this if not the parents?

Do you not see a problem with a system which no one can pay for?

tovasara

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 7:34 pm

natrualgeek wrote:

There is another point some are forgetting.
Those parents who don't finish paying tuition can not get diplomas or transcripts for their children.
I personally had to beg my old school to release my transcripts so that I can apply to collage.

except this only affects the people paying anyway. if someone is given a large scholarship or the tuition is forgiven, it's not on their bill and they DO get their report cards. It's only the people who are paying a lot who haven't finished paying it who are punished.

This happened to friends of mine last year. they paid everything except the school dinner fee (meaning they paid over $9000, but still owed $500) and their sons' reports cards were withheld. those who get major tuition breaks got theirs!!!!!

saw50st8

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 8:54 pm

yummymummy wrote:

OPINIONATED wrote:

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

I was not saying that we should institute this policy rather than getting rid of the administrative bloat. I meant for it to be IN ADDITION to the schools really taking a good look at their costs and removing the excess. I don't think 20 girls need a teacher AND an assistant.

However, even with reducing the bloat there is sure to be a decent cost to tuition. And there is sure to be a group of people who say they can't pay it. Why shouldn't they pay their debt slowly? If a family suddenly falls into money why shouldn't they have to pay back the tuition scholarships they received? Parents will be in debt forever? OK. I have no problem with that. Pay it off slowly like you would anything else.

The payments can be restructured on a scheduled basis (with emergency restructuring for people who experience a financial hit etc.).

The debt would be in the parents name.

If you are paying off your debt slowly you are less ashamed of having a tuition scholarship.

The old system of asking gevirim to pay for the needs of the rest of the community simply is not working anymore. There are less gevirim and more needy.

In your experience, how many people suddenly fall into money?

In my experience, the more you make, the more the schools charge.

As far as being in debt forever, based on my calculations, if someone has seven children, and has to pay $10,000 a year per child with after tax dollars, and is allowed to owe the money instead of paying it all at once, and only makes $100,000 a year before taxes...

Then those parents should be in debt until they drop dead.

I agree.

We think nothing of plunking down hundreds of thousands on home mortgages, if we believe Yeshiva is the investment in our children and their spirituality, it would be worth it.

Also, generally, people's primary years of high income are thier 40s, 50s and 60s. So once their kids start graduating, they'll be in a better financial situation to repay the loan.

yummymummy

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 10:25 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

Who are these "more kids (that will be) enrolled"? Everyone is currently enrolled under the current system. The children on scholarship are just not paying as much. There will not be more children enrolling under the new pay over time system raising the cost for everyone. It's the same number of kids, only the cost is getting allocated more equitably.

Atali

Mon, Nov 08 2010, 10:51 pm

OPINIONATED wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

There are fixed costs up to a certain point, and this is where economies of scale come into the picture.

For example, it does not cost much more for a school to have a class of 25 students than a class of 20 students. Therefore, if an extra five kids enroll in the class the cost for the school per student is reduced.

However, if another ten kids enroll it may involve creating a new class, which would result in more costs. This is called a diseconomy of scale. So a balance is needed to enable schools to function as efficiently as possible. Schools should be pretty large and grow at a moderate rate, but not in a way that creates more costs per student.

For more information see this article on Wikipedia (feel free to skip over the economic terms. It isn't as complex as it seems) : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E.....scale

chavamom

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 1:04 am

yummymummy wrote:

My point was to explain why I feel that paying off tuiton over time is more equitable than a community wide tax. The community's school's costs will rise in proportion with the number of students enrolled so I believe those who choose to have more children (for whatever reason) should shoulder a greater burden.

And my point was that it makes it a parental obligation only and not a communal one. If you think that's not fair - take it up with chazal.

saw50st8

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 6:21 am

chavamom wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

And my point was that it makes it a parental obligation only and not a communal one. If you think that's not fair - take it up with chazal.

But its easier to implement without bankrupting the Jewish world.

JAWSCIENCE

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:06 am

chavamom wrote:

yummymummy wrote:

And my point was that it makes it a parental obligation only and not a communal one. If you think that's not fair - take it up with chazal.

Communal, meaning even those parents who currently get breaks. This just allows them t make a contribution over a greater period of time. The tuition alone is not going to cover the school in terms of buying buildings etc. But it will keep the day to day costs managed. And if all the parents that currently get breaks had to pay that huge bill then there would be more voices expressing concern over wasteful spending and administrative glut.

zigi

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:30 am

this is an interesting idea. besides giving tzedakah giving money to the school is a good idea. the teachers can get paid and then they will be able to pay their bills and the stores will be able to pay their bills etc. everyone benefits. I don't think that it should be the price of tuition though but even a smaller amount will make a difference. the school that your children went to should be as important as the other tzedakas that one gives to. the money should be spent showing where it goes there should be accountability. ok so more people working in school they are giving them a job- helping a yid, but if it means that having extra people the teachers aren't being paid don't hire them. its not helping.

chavamom

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:36 am

JAWSCIENCE wrote:

There is the assumption that that is what is going on in schools. I don't think it's the case in any of the schools my kids are in...and full tuition is still plenty. Your idea has the potential to cripple families financially for a lifetime.

tovasara

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:41 am

It mean that the Rabbanim would have to discourage all parlor meetings that are for organizations other than our schools. do you see it happening?

The Rabbanim should also be requiring that some of the tuition money go straight into the payroll fund for the Rebbes and Teachers to insure that they get paid. but that's not happening either.

Honestly, I can barely make ends meet with a decent job and getting my salary - I don't understand how the administrators of the schools can sleep at night when the teachers and Rebbes aren't getting paid.

realeez

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:45 am

chavamom wrote:

zigi wrote:

the school that your children went to should be as important as the other tzedakas that one gives to.

I think this is huge. I've pretty much stopped sending $ out of town b/c our schools are in crisis. IF everyone did that, prioritized their local schools?

I recently heard that in Chicago, it's a rule not to give more than X% out of the city. Here it's a huge problem - there BH are many gvirim and a year ago, a Rebbe left the city with over a million dollars while city Rebbeim were not getting paid... The problem with such a rule though is that most young ppl in my city leave when they get married and their parents are supporting them where they live (often Lkwd) so then the tzeddakah money is easily be diverted out of city and how can you stop that?

zigi

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:51 am

tovasara wrote:

this is true. but if school is in the forfont of our minds, instead of an extra some money can go to the school. there are a lot of it should be a priority. not when we have way more than enough money, I do know what you mean. I don't have a lot of extra cash, the tzedakas that I try to give to. pay as much tution as I can, give money to the yeshivos that helped dh and that he went to.

saw50st8

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 9:58 am

chavamom wrote:

zigi wrote:

the school that your children went to should be as important as the other tzedakas that one gives to.

I think this is huge. I've pretty much stopped sending $ out of town b/c our schools are in crisis. IF everyone did that, prioritized their local schools?

But that's also asking people to stop supporting organizations like Tomchei Shabbos. What's more important? Feeding people? or educating them?

Also, if you are on scholarship, do you have to give maaser? I thought if you are recieving tzedaka, then you are supposed to hold of paying maaser. If not, your maaser should still go to the school.

Oh and about parents - I forget which Rabbi (it may have been Rav Shachter, but I don't quite remember) said that you should give within your city first. If your kids ask you to pay their kids tuition, your obligation is to the local schools first. I don't know if this is a popular psak or not though.

chavamom

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 10:05 am

saw50st8 wrote:

chavamom wrote:

zigi wrote:

the school that your children went to should be as important as the other tzedakas that one gives to.

I think this is huge. I've pretty much stopped sending $ out of town b/c our schools are in crisis. IF everyone did that, prioritized their local schools?

It's pashut halacha to give in your city first ("aniei irecha"), there is no way that is controversial or even R. Shachter. I'm not saying don't give to tomchei shabbos - I'm saying "keep your $ in town and prioritize the local institutions". Why should I be sending my money to support schools in Cleveland when the schools here can't pay their teachers?

saw50st8

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 10:07 am

chavamom wrote:

saw50st8 wrote:

chavamom wrote:

zigi wrote:

the school that your children went to should be as important as the other tzedakas that one gives to.

I think this is huge. I've pretty much stopped sending $ out of town b/c our schools are in crisis. IF everyone did that, prioritized their local schools?

I meant giving in your city vs giving your grandchildren's tuition. Isn't the paternal grandfather responsible for educating his grandchildren if his son isn't able to?

I agree with prioritizing for local institutions and definitely try to do that.

JAWSCIENCE

Tue, Nov 09 2010, 11:05 am

I agree that people should give their maaser to their local institutions first. Be it the school, mikvah or area tomchei shabbos.

This is basically a voluntary version of my plan - even when your kids are out of school you should still support it. However without making some sort of rule, like tuition loans or a takaneh that if you got a tuition scholarship when you are in a financial state that allows you to give maaser it should go to the school, I don't see it happening. People are all too quick to forget the hand that fed them. You can't just assume that the rich gevirim in the city will support the whole city. This is just not feasible. The regular people have to do their part as well.